danclem
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Condolences to Antoine's family and friends.
Laguna Beach Death
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Trisha Krinke
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Antoine Hayes was a very experienced diver. He was a good swimmer as well. What I have learned from this sad, unfortunate incident is that we can never be too careful. The simple procedures of buddy check and staying together throughout the dive are things we should never forget. We all take a risk when we dive, but if you love the sport, the experience is worth the risk. Sometimes I disregard the simple safety procedures myself, diving solo as I so often do.......but maybe I will think twice in the future.
My sincere condolences to Antoines' family. He was a gentle, kind soul. I hope he dives forever in the next life.
One thing that gives me a little comfort is that Antoine LOVED diving, and at least he left us doing something that gave him so much joy.
My sincere condolences to Antoines' family. He was a gentle, kind soul. I hope he dives forever in the next life.
One thing that gives me a little comfort is that Antoine LOVED diving, and at least he left us doing something that gave him so much joy.
luapo
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Just to update people. The autopsy report concludes Antoine drowned. Of course, it must be noted that the report concludes this by the fact that there was water in his lungs and was the cause of death. He also had an enlarged heart (I think they said due to overexertion, but not sure). My issue with this is that he had a functional regulator. We know this because Matt used it to initially give him air and tested it upon reaching him in the water. The police took the gear to investigate and as far as we know it was functioning. Matt did say that his BCD was not fully inflated, but how would an experienced diver forget to breath from his regulator if he was having trouble staying afloat? I mean, that is our primary source of air and if we are having difficulty breathing at the surface or are sinking, isn't it a first, almost instinctual, response to grab and use the regulator? So, anyway, my point is, even though none of us will actually know, it seems as though he had a medical emergency, seizure perhaps, that affected his thinking. They found no enzymes in his blood that indicate heart attack.
By the way, this is a good example of how or even if the techniques learned in the rescue course actually work. I was talking to my physician last week out of curiosity (of course I already knew the answer - common sense) and explained to him the idea of rescue breathing as a form of CPR when towing an unconscious person, without a pulse and therefor not breathing, to shore. He asked me how long it takes to get to the sand, I told him five to ten minutes when you are out at "Dead Man's Reef" and only if you are an excellent swimmer and not towing an unconscious victim. Of course his reply was that rescue breaths due absolutely nothing if you don't circulate blood to the brain. Actually, and he pointed this out, the idea of slowing down to give breaths only prolongs the time it takes to get to shore where you can initiate true CPR.
Now Matt, as I understand, tried giving breaths but instead hauled @$$ to shore to get him out of the water. In my opinion that was the smartest thing to do. I don't mean to contradict PADI teaching standards, but I think the text on rescue should be addressed a bit more in detail seeing as how this is a life and death issue and that they are supposedly advising on a time critical issue. One should assess the victims condition (i.e., pulse-no breaths) before slowing down to do rescue breaths. If the victim has no pulse, there is no reason to slow down for anything. Actually it is criminal almost to advise to do so when time is of the essence. Maybe I didn't understand the curriculum or missed the part where we may have been taught to assess the patient. But somehow as I recollect I don't think it was mentioned. As a matter of fact, I think I recall the instructor saying it was better than nothing. Yes, this was the case. We asked what this would do for someone without a pulse and the response was, "It's better than nothing." Somehow now, I disagree.
Anyhow, in this case it would not have mattered.
I only tell you people all this as a discussion issue for the safety of future divers. I mean no disrespect to my friend Antoine by disclosing information. It is in all our best interest to learn from accidents and to re-evaluate what it is that we "think" we know. We can always improve upon methods we've learned. I also mean no disrespect to the instructors who teach as they are directed. I took the rescue course with Matt and Antoine and I know that we were not the easiest students to control and therefor teach. But I do mean some amount of disrespect for an organization who profits from putting out thousands of divers and offering education beyond the basic ideas of diving and giving the unrealistic comfort of offering a first aide course that does not keep us on our toes, in fact it falsely gives us a sense of ability that we will never have unless we are diving in a confined space with real rescue personnel watching over us. We should never take anything for granted.
Trish, saw your post. Knew it was you from your name (i.e., your real name). You should try using a pseudonym, perhaps your name backwards...... LUAPO.......
By the way, this is a good example of how or even if the techniques learned in the rescue course actually work. I was talking to my physician last week out of curiosity (of course I already knew the answer - common sense) and explained to him the idea of rescue breathing as a form of CPR when towing an unconscious person, without a pulse and therefor not breathing, to shore. He asked me how long it takes to get to the sand, I told him five to ten minutes when you are out at "Dead Man's Reef" and only if you are an excellent swimmer and not towing an unconscious victim. Of course his reply was that rescue breaths due absolutely nothing if you don't circulate blood to the brain. Actually, and he pointed this out, the idea of slowing down to give breaths only prolongs the time it takes to get to shore where you can initiate true CPR.
Now Matt, as I understand, tried giving breaths but instead hauled @$$ to shore to get him out of the water. In my opinion that was the smartest thing to do. I don't mean to contradict PADI teaching standards, but I think the text on rescue should be addressed a bit more in detail seeing as how this is a life and death issue and that they are supposedly advising on a time critical issue. One should assess the victims condition (i.e., pulse-no breaths) before slowing down to do rescue breaths. If the victim has no pulse, there is no reason to slow down for anything. Actually it is criminal almost to advise to do so when time is of the essence. Maybe I didn't understand the curriculum or missed the part where we may have been taught to assess the patient. But somehow as I recollect I don't think it was mentioned. As a matter of fact, I think I recall the instructor saying it was better than nothing. Yes, this was the case. We asked what this would do for someone without a pulse and the response was, "It's better than nothing." Somehow now, I disagree.
Anyhow, in this case it would not have mattered.
I only tell you people all this as a discussion issue for the safety of future divers. I mean no disrespect to my friend Antoine by disclosing information. It is in all our best interest to learn from accidents and to re-evaluate what it is that we "think" we know. We can always improve upon methods we've learned. I also mean no disrespect to the instructors who teach as they are directed. I took the rescue course with Matt and Antoine and I know that we were not the easiest students to control and therefor teach. But I do mean some amount of disrespect for an organization who profits from putting out thousands of divers and offering education beyond the basic ideas of diving and giving the unrealistic comfort of offering a first aide course that does not keep us on our toes, in fact it falsely gives us a sense of ability that we will never have unless we are diving in a confined space with real rescue personnel watching over us. We should never take anything for granted.
Trish, saw your post. Knew it was you from your name (i.e., your real name). You should try using a pseudonym, perhaps your name backwards...... LUAPO.......
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Trish, if you would like your username changed, you can request that on the Support forum.
Thanks Luapo. Most deaths that happen in water are going to be written off as drowning as in this case it seems. I think you're assessment is more accurate, IMO. I also agree, get the victim to wherever you need to be to start compressions ASAP; what I don't know is how well I could confirm a lack of pulse especially in the water. Bottom line, I think: You do the best you can when the emergency happens, as Matt did. :medal:
Thanks Luapo. Most deaths that happen in water are going to be written off as drowning as in this case it seems. I think you're assessment is more accurate, IMO. I also agree, get the victim to wherever you need to be to start compressions ASAP; what I don't know is how well I could confirm a lack of pulse especially in the water. Bottom line, I think: You do the best you can when the emergency happens, as Matt did. :medal:
luapo
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You're right Don. But finding a pulse isn't that difficult, even in the water, with the exception of the gloves.
luapo
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What does IMO mean?
Beachlover
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First off, my codolences to everyone involved.
That's how we teach rough entries; don't EVER take the reg out of your mouth, DE-flate your BC, then crawl along the bottom as quickly as you can until deep enough/through the surf enough to sit on the bottom and don your fins. Getting slammed on the surface by waves seems like a recipe for disaster, but for some reason most people get taught to do it that way.
Oh, and for those of you who think I'm crazy or otherwise don't know what I'm talking about, I frequently dive a beach in NorCal called Monastery beach, which seems to take a few lives every year.
That's how we teach rough entries; don't EVER take the reg out of your mouth, DE-flate your BC, then crawl along the bottom as quickly as you can until deep enough/through the surf enough to sit on the bottom and don your fins. Getting slammed on the surface by waves seems like a recipe for disaster, but for some reason most people get taught to do it that way.
Oh, and for those of you who think I'm crazy or otherwise don't know what I'm talking about, I frequently dive a beach in NorCal called Monastery beach, which seems to take a few lives every year.
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