Know anything about these trucks???

[KOMPRESSOR]

Diesels are popular here only with the larger trucks such as your Suburban (which I presume is a medium duty 2500 model, and not the light duty 1500), largely for better fuel consumption but also for their tremendous torque. For light duty trucks, gasoline is the overwhelming if not only engine choice for Americans. That's not surprising as most Americans who drive trucks do so as fashion statements and not out of necessity.

Yes it is. Only a few 1500's have found their way over here, and mostly during periods where the GM diesels have fallen behind on emission demands.

Actually I have to agree with airsix. While the diesel Mondeo I drove across Europe impressed me with its acceleration ability for a diesel, one thing that I noticed (and the reason I still feel diesels aren't ready for mainstream America) it that is required CONSTANT shifting to keep it within the torque band. That's not going to work well in a country where the population is used to powerful, slow revving engines with wide torque bands. Compare that with my personal car, a Nissan Altima sedan with the same 3.5 litre V-6 from the 350Z, and a 5 speed manual gearbox; the torque band on that engine is such that I can (and inadvertently have) pulled away from a stop in third gear, and yet I can also cruise at American freeway speeds in the same gear. Try that with any diesel engine.
That Mondeo also had an annoying need to be revved rather high when pulling away from a stop; I found that out the hard way as I pulled out of the Hertz office in downtown Zurich, and kept stalling the car to the chagrin (and more) of the normally reserved Swiss people.

But you drove that Mondeo "a couple of years ago", and I suppose that was the old 1,8 liter turbodiesel, not the new commonrail they sell today. Your car most likely had 90 HP and not much torque. Today they come with a 2,2 Cdi with 155 HP and loads of torque and a -w-i-d-e- torque range. And I promise you it will both pull away in third gear + cruise any American freeway.
-What's more, It's just super for any auto transmission!

150 HP is also not all that powerful when coupled to a car as heavy as a Mercedes. Because of all the safety engineering that goes into it, even a C-class weighs in excess of 3400 lbs, quite heavy for a car of its size.

It's plenty. We are talking DIN horse power here, not SAE. I hope you know the difference :14: But if that isn't enough for you you can get the same car with 5-syl 2,8 litre CDI 190 HP, 6-syl 3,2 litre Cdi 224 HP and 8-syl 4,2 litre Cdi 314 HP. So the 2,2 litre is actually the entry level engine... Never mind just looking at the Mercedes cars here. I know you think of it as something luxurious and way expensive. Here they're just "taxis"



My point is rather that the new generation diesel engines with COMMONRAIL (look it up) technology is far more "driver friendly" than any other kind of car engines today, and not at all compareable to the diesels of the 80's you may be thinking of "over there". You have a sluggish market for new technology in cars and keep driving old crap in new wrapping just because it doesn't matter what milage you get. -For the majority of buyers of NEW cars anyway. So European and Japanese car manufacturers are simply way ahead of the US'. Now don't get me all wrong. I do like the sensation of a smooth V8 gas engine myself! My friend has a Chevy 4x4 with the 6,0 Vortec. It runs on PROPANE!!!

 

[RonDawg]

But you drove that Mondeo "a couple of years ago", and I suppose that was the old 1,8 liter turbodiesel, not the new commonrail they sell today. Your car most likely had 90 HP and not much torque. Today they come with a 2,2 Cdi with 155 HP and loads of torque and a -w-i-d-e- torque range. And I promise you it will both pull away in third gear + cruise any American freeway.
-What's more, It's just super for any auto transmission!

Nope, it was a 2004 model with the 2.0 TDCi (see attached photo of the actual car I drove). It will NOT pull away from a stop in third gear; it was quite a chore just to keep it stalling in first. A low redline (common for any diesel) made it impossible to cruise at 100 km/hr in third gear.

While in the UK I did drive a Ford Focus C-MAX with the same 2.0 TDCi and a 6 speed manual gearbox. That setup was a lot better (lower first gear ratio meant I didn't have to rev the crap out of the engine to prevent stalling) and the lighter weight of the Focus meant the car was actually quite zippy.

We are talking DIN horse power here, not SAE. I hope you know the difference :14: But if that isn't enough for you you can get the same car with 5-syl 2,8 litre CDI 190 HP, 6-syl 3,2 litre Cdi 224 HP and 8-syl 4,2 litre Cdi 314 HP. So the 2,2 litre is actually the entry level engine... Never mind just looking at the Mercedes cars here. I know you think of it as something luxurious and way expensive. Here they're just "taxis"

It's "plenty" for Europeans used to underpowered cars with tiny engines. But for Americans used to V-8's...no way.

Also, when you say "SAE" you are probably referring to the old "SAE gross" horsepower ratings. Those have not been in use since the muscle car days, and now car manufacturers are required to use "SAE net" ratings which are pretty close to DIN. From Wikipedia:

DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower.

My point is rather that the new generation diesel engines with COMMONRAIL (look it up) technology is far more "driver friendly" than any other kind of car engines today, and not at all compareable to the diesels of the 80's you may be thinking of "over there".

I agree, but as an American driver who has sampled it (the two Fords, plus a Peugeot 306 with the 1.9 TDi), diesels still aren't ready for the mainstream American market. Just ask VW of America how many TDI models they sell vs. the 1.8T's and the V-6's. For that matter ask Mercedes Benz USA how many diesel models they sell nowadays vs. the gasoline powered models.

You have a sluggish market for new technology in cars and keep driving old crap in new wrapping just because it doesn't matter what milage you get.

The focus for cars sold in America has been emissions control without sacrificing horsepower. If you look at Honda models in particular, they have done a very good job of introducing engines with very low emissions without turning the car into a slug. Not exactly "old crap in new wrapping."

 

[dbg40]

I have a 2500 Dodge quad cab 4X4 with a diesel. I get an average of 21 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. and between 14 to 17 city. It drives and handles beautifully, and the ride is outstanding. In fact, I just put 3200 miles on it in less than 2 weeks, and the trip was a pleasure! Cummins diesels have an outstanding reputation for long trouble free life. I could'nt be happier.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Nope, it was a 2004 model with the 2.0 TDCi (see attached photo of the actual car I drove). It will NOT pull away from a stop in third gear; it was quite a chore just to keep it stalling in first. A low redline (common for any diesel) made it impossible to cruise at 100 km/hr in third gear.

While in the UK I did drive a Ford Focus C-MAX with the same 2.0 TDCi and a 6 speed manual gearbox. That setup was a lot better (lower first gear ratio meant I didn't have to rev the crap out of the engine to prevent stalling) and the lighter weight of the Focus meant the car was actually quite zippy.



It's "plenty" for Europeans used to underpowered cars with tiny engines. But for Americans used to V-8's...no way.

Also, when you say "SAE" you are probably referring to the old "SAE gross" horsepower ratings. Those have not been in use since the muscle car days, and now car manufacturers are required to use "SAE net" ratings which are pretty close to DIN. From Wikipedia:

DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower.



I agree, but as an American driver who has sampled it (the two Fords, plus a Peugeot 306 with the 1.9 TDi), diesels still aren't ready for the mainstream American market. Just ask VW of America how many TDI models they sell vs. the 1.8T's and the V-6's. For that matter ask Mercedes Benz USA how many diesel models they sell nowadays vs. the gasoline powered models.



The focus for cars sold in America has been emissions control without sacrificing horsepower. If you look at Honda models in particular, they have done a very good job of introducing engines with very low emissions without turning the car into a slug. Not exactly "old crap in new wrapping."

There... The 2004 2,0 Tci had 115 HP and not by far the torque of the new 2,2 Tci 155 hp. And I can understand you didn't think much of it, although as you say most Europeans wouldn't mind. -And it is Ford's first generation of small commonrail diesels. The Peugeot 1,9 Tdi is not a commonrail. Today they come in either 1,6 Hdi, 2,0 Hdi, 2,2 Hdi and I think an even bigger V6 Hdi (not sure).

Most of the new 6 speed gearboxes doesn't have a lower first gear ratio, but rather tend to have closer gears and a higher 6th speed. We got a VW Touran with a 6-speed, and at first I thought it would be more "work" shifting all those gears. I was wrong. It was smooth as silk! -And the 1,6 FSI is a great engine.

I have yet to drive a US-made entry level engine equipped car, V6 or not, that could be called anything but sluggish. My father drives a Dodge with the 3,3 V6 for instance, and although it's not fair to compare it with new cars, it's sluggish and guzzles gas like no other car I've driven.

For most purposes a large V8 gas engine is simply a waste of energy. If we leave expensive sportscars out one could say they are useful for larger trucks. But I'd say the new (V8?) diesels simply do a better job at that.

You mention the sales ratio for VW and MB, gas vs diesel, in the US. I know this. And over here it's the opposite!

SAE vs DIN? Ok, I learned something today! -Thanks!

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

I have a 2500 Dodge quad cab 4X4 with a diesel. I get an average of 21 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. and between 14 to 17 city. It drives and handles beautifully, and the ride is outstanding. In fact, I just put 3200 miles on it in less than 2 weeks, and the trip was a pleasure! Cummins diesels have an outstanding reputation for long trouble free life. I could'nt be happier.

Now yer talkin'! COMMONRAIL!

5,9 liter, 6-syl, 325 hp, and an outstanding 812 Newton meter torque at only 1400 rpm!

-The looks of that truck is simply "killer":

And as a bonus your neighbours will always know when you leave home for work in the morning... The Cummins is a bit noisy on the outside, but since they've done a heck of a job insulating the cabin, WHO CARES!

 

[skierbri10]

I have seen too many trucks involved in crashes to buy anything that isnt a nice big American truck. Nissans are some of worst I have seen as well as Toyo's. I have seen the full size japanese trucks so torn apart in accidents that I wonder how they can pass crash tests. Though the big Dodges I have seen fair very good in accidents. So I cannot give any recommendation other than Dodge and Chevys.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

The focus for cars sold in America has been emissions control without sacrificing horsepower. If you look at Honda models in particular, they have done a very good job of introducing engines with very low emissions without turning the car into a slug. Not exactly "old crap in new wrapping."

That's interesting, because Honda isn't a volume selling car over here, maybe except for their "household" 4x4, which by the way now (from 2006) also comes with a 2,2 commonrail diesel
-And for engines, they do not have the edge on for instance the VW FSI gas engines. Not by far. Modern technology leads the way to less volume engines without loss of torque and hp, and with far better milage than before. I think you guys are very stuck in the saying "There's no beating cubic inches", or something like that. The Hondas seems to go with that here at least, with 2,4 liter 4-syl and even larger V6 engines.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

The only problem with diesel....is....diesel costs more than gas.

How much more? Is diesel readily available at all gas stations then? If you consider a reduction in fuel consumtion of 10-20%, will that cover the extra cost?

I just checked our prices, and for comparision diesel is 20% cheaper than gas.

Diesel: 5,70 USD/Gallon
95 octane unleaded: 6,80 USD/Gallon
98 octane unleaded: 7,00 USD/Gallon

Are they still selling 91 octane unleaded in the US?

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

I have seen too many trucks involved in crashes to buy anything that isnt a nice big American truck. Nissans are some of worst I have seen as well as Toyo's. I have seen the full size japanese trucks so torn apart in accidents that I wonder how they can pass crash tests. Though the big Dodges I have seen fair very good in accidents. So I cannot give any recommendation other than Dodge and Chevys.

Did you also take a look at "the other car" involved in the accidents? Bigger is better, as long as it is YOU in the biggest car. -Not for the people in the other car. Does it matter?

Which full size Nissans and Toyotas did you see? I didn't know they came out so bad in crash tests, but I haven't studied this. In fact, I didn't know they had full size trucks! :drejnd:

 

[RonDawg]

There... The 2004 2,0 Tci had 115 HP and not by far the torque of the new 2,2 Tci 155 hp. And I can understand you didn't think much of it, although as you say most Europeans wouldn't mind. -And it is Ford's first generation of small commonrail diesels. The Peugeot 1,9 Tdi is not a commonrail. Today they come in either 1,6 Hdi, 2,0 Hdi, 2,2 Hdi and I think an even bigger V6 Hdi (not sure).

Actually, of the three diesel powered cars I drove, the Peugeot had the best driveability despite the "low tech" engine. Unlike the Mondeo, and to a lesser extent the Focus, the Peugeot didn't require me to rev the engine like crazy. I could literally put it in gear, release the clutch without applying any "gas", and the car would move from a start. It made driving in Paris' notorious gridlock much more tolerable. It also could get up to Autoroute speeds without too much fuss. Now if Peugeot could make a decent gearbox that wouldn't cause you to select third when you really wanted fifth, it would have been a better car.

And for engines, they do not have the edge on for instance the VW FSI gas engines.

I don't agree. Honda has taken gasoline engines and cut their emissions probably as far as it will ever go. Many of their models are EPA certified as Low Emission and Ultra Low Emission Vehicles, even if you exclude their hybrids.

Check out this list of 2006's "Greenest" vehicles sold in America. While Honda models make up 1/3 of the list, notice not a single VW model even makes the list:

http://www.greenercars.com/12green.html

And the VW Passat FSI 2.0L's EPA rating of 24 city and 32 highway isn't that impressive at all, considering the size of the engine. My Nissan's 3.5L V-6 gets me 21 MPG in the city, and if I don't use the A/C I can reach 30 MPG on the open road, yet it will reach 70 MPH in SECOND gear and reach 60 MPH in under 6 seconds.

My father drives a Dodge with the 3,3 V6 for instance, and although it's not fair to compare it with new cars, it's sluggish and guzzles gas like no other car I've driven.

Chrysler's 3.3L V-6 is an older engine (it was first introduced in 1990) with older technology (pushrods rather than the more current OHC setup). It's definitely not the pinnacle of even American engine technology, much less the rest of the world's.

How much more? Is diesel readily available at all gas stations then? If you consider a reduction in fuel consumtion of 10-20%, will that cover the extra cost?

I just checked our prices, and for comparision diesel is 20% cheaper than gas.

Diesel: 5,70 USD/Gallon
95 octane unleaded: 6,80 USD/Gallon
98 octane unleaded: 7,00 USD/Gallon

Are they still selling 91 octane unleaded in the US?

That's another issue in the US, and that's diesel availability. While better than it was in the 70's and 80's, many fuel stations still don't carry diesel, and of those that do, it's usually one or two pumps (out of several at the bigger ones) that have a diesel nozzle.

Depending on where you go, diesel is anywhere from 15 cents a gallon less to as much as 50 cents a gallon MORE than regular 87 octane unleaded. There is definitely not the price advantage that is seen in Europe.

And yes 91 octane unleaded is still available, in fact you can get it just about everywhere than standard 87 is available. Many if not most fuel stations also have "midgrade" 89 for sale.