Knee problems

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vodolaz

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Lately I've noticed increasing discomfort in the ligament running down the inner side of my knee. I've primarily used the frog kick for years, but it's only begun bothering me in the last month, usually after 70-90 minutes.

It doesn't bother me on the surface. Possibly I've aggravated it while swimming without fins in a pool.

Is it a good idea to wrap the knee with gauze before diving dry? Should I avoid the pool for awhile?
 
Hi vodolaz,

It sounds like you may have strained the strap ligament along the inside of the knee that prevents it giving way to cause "knock knees". Skiing or contact sports are often responsible and they usually recover with rest and time.

Pain is the body's method of telling you when your are causing it damage so it is obvious you must not do anything that causes pain. A brace of some sort may help to protect it but simply padding it will serve no real purpose.

Best to see your own doctor for him to determine exactly what is causing your pain.

Take a look at knee anatomy and click on the various ligaments to get a description of each.

Hope this helps.:doctor:
 
Hi, Vodolaz.

You may want to try a flutter kick for a while. I also have knee problems (hockey) and have found with a flutter kick, not only do I not aggravate the injury, I actually feel great when I get out of the water. My doctor says it's because of increased endorphins or something like that. Hope this helps.

- eric
 
When performed with an equivalent degree of vigor, there is no reason to suspect that flutter kicking produces more endorphins than frog kicking.

Flutter kicking does, however, involve much less movement of the knee.

Best regards.

DocVikingo
 
Thanks, Doc.

That's actually the point I was trying (not very well) to make. That the flutter kick uses less knee movement. Thanks for clearing that up.

- eric
 
At risk of exposing my ignorance can someone explain the difference between frog kick and flutter kick? These are terms I am not familiar with and suspect are seldom used in the UK.

Both the collateral ligaments (and the anterior cruciates) stabilise the knee and prevent lateral (sideways) movement but allow free flexion and extension at the knee (fore and aft).

Thus the risk in contact sports. A blow to the outside of the knee will cause it to buckle (the lower leg effectively moving outwards laterally from the neutral position causing a "knock knee" effect). this stretches the medial collateral ligament (MCL).

Of course the same occurs if the foot is pulled outwards from the neutral position against a hip held fixed by the massive thigh muscles, or alternatively if these same thigh muscles are used to pull the starightened leg laterally inwards to to the neutral position against resistance at the foot. As I understand it, this is what occurs during the power stroke of what I understand by a frog kick. If I am right, this explains why a frog kick will put additional strain of the MCL, causing considerable pain if this is already damaged and indeed may cause damage itself. In addition fins are designed to work most efficiently with an up and down motion so I suspect such a frog kick will cause a rotational strain at the knee.

I gather a flutter kick is the simple up and down movement of the legs/feet in the same rotational axis as the knee, thus producing no lateral or rotational strain at the knee joint. I was taught the most efficient flutter kick is to kick from the hips with the legs straight (using the powerful thigh muscles) rather than at the knees (largely using the quadriceps alone). In any case these kicks cause very little lateral strain on the knees. Hence this could explain why epconti finds a flutter kick does not aggravate his knee injury and why and voldolaz developed problems with his by using a frog kick.

There is a third possible use of fins, of course, and that is simply to hold the legs rigidly togther and swim like a dolphin, moving the fins up and down together. I have done this occassionally as it can produce a burst of rapid speed but it is very tiring.

When holding station and doing a "helicopter" manoeuvre or changing direction underwater a certain amount of lateral strain at the knees is inevitable. However, I would suggest that, whatever finning technigue is used, any lateral or rotational strain at the knee should be avoided whenever possible.

We are not frogs and our legs are designed for walking and running, not for finning!

:froggy:
 
Actually, I thought of inflammation of the largest bursa in the body - the pes anserinus or goose's foot bursa.

It is seen in swimmers, particularly breast strokers who use the frog kick, as stated by Dr. Thomas. However, it woulld be difficult to differentiate from an MCL strain, which can be caused by the same exercise.

There are multiple treatments of this condition and this would best be discussed with your examining physician.
 
Frog kick--a swimming kick used in the breaststroke in which the knees are drawn up close to the hips and the feet are thrust outward and backward so that the legs come together when fully extended.

Flutter kick-- a swimming kick where the legs are moved rapidly up and down without bending the knees.

Cheers,

DocVikingo
 
DocVikingo once bubbled...
Frog kick--a swimming kick used in the breaststroke in which the knees are drawn up close to the hips and the feet are thrust outward and backward so that the legs come together when fully extended.
Not too far off then.

I have tried this with fins a few times without great success, but perhaps my version of the breast stroke is non "standard".:)
 
scubadoc once bubbled...
Actually, I thought of inflammation of the largest bursa in the body - the pes anserinus or goose's foot bursa.

It is seen in swimmers, particularly breast strokers who use the frog kick, as stated by Dr. Thomas. However, it woulld be difficult to differentiate from an MCL strain, which can be caused by the same exercise.

There are multiple treatments of this condition and this would best be discussed with your examining physician.
Excellent catch, scubadoc! I recently started swimming the breaststroke, and while doing so strained it the first time. Frogkicking without fins means an unaccustomed lack of headway, and I overcompensated on an awkward stroke.

I checked with my GP, and he echoed the difficulty of differentiating between the MCl and the bursa. He suggested an initial treatment which would work for both: naproxen, ice, and rest when possible.

Minor discomfort began around the 30 minute mark on both of today's dives. :(
 
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