Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[J.R.]

... I also checked out the shops "staff list"... there are 22 people workin' there... seems to me that if the place were that messed up there would be the owner and maybe one other... or two... so either 20 (or so) of the staff are REALLY DESPERATE... or the shop isn't that bad of an environment to work in...

... just a thought...

 

[OldNSalty]

The "I'll take my business elsewhere" threat and the "I'll NOT be refering you to my two friends" threat doesn't hold much water in a world of shotgun marketing... they'll *tell you* they're concerned... but they aren't...

I agree with you that it probably isn't taken to heart by the some small mom and pop stores but this is one reason they will almost certainly always be the small mom and pop store that every year wonders if it will be their last.

In an earlier life, I hate to admit, I managed a sporting goods store (60,000 sqft and nearly 1 million a month in sales). We listened to every unhappy customer and if their side was even remotely reasonable they left happy even if the store took a small loss over the issue. Bad PR and the loss of a returning customer is hardly ever worth any one argument.

 

[seaducer]

Obviously it's a choice she exercised when she kicked the OP out of the class. It seems we have a point of agreement.

Look, there are two ways to build a business model. In the first way, you scheme and scheme to make it bullet-proof. You look for all of the little chinks where someone can take advantage of you and you lose money, and you design your promotions and what-not so that the "loophole" is closed.

In the second way, you simply run your business on the fly, and when something comes up that seems to cost you money, you shut it down or say "no."

The second strategy requires a business owner that is very active in the business, while the first scales up a lot better because you can have less committed people on the front line. It's how most small business has to work.

So the LDS chooses to have training as a loss leader, but then realized that this student was a loss but unlikely to lead to more business, so she chose to say "no."

Shrug. What's the big whup here?

I think there is another option. (let me qualify by stating up front I am not a buisness owner, nor do I wish to be)

How about you take pride in what you do, and charge accordingly? Nobody begrudges a buisness person for providing a quality product and making a little money.

On the flip side, you can come up with some gimmick, like providing scuba training at or below cost. Then you can try to strongarm your captive audience into purchasing what may be overpriced equipment, from a limited inventory, and if they refuse to play by those rules you can deny them any further services. Sounds like a scumbag to me.

I do feel for the LDS, and the fact that internet gear sales are so much cheaper. But to some degree this is the model that the shops chose, and where we are now was certainly forseeable for some time. You have to adapt.

The LDS can continue to survive, and maybe even thrive if they:

• provide quality training
• provide quality equipment service
• provide air/gas fills
• rent gear
• organize trips
• run a dive op
• sell the little stuff that divers replace last minute like straps, buckles and other doohickies

No need to sell a BCD to someone who doesn't know any better for 450$ when they can buy the same thing online for 300$, and have many more models to choose from.

One thing is for sure though, turning away buisness is a certain way to make less money.

And in the 5 year old OP, nitrox training? How much does that cost to provide? Cost of card and material has to be less than 50$ to the shop. They typically provide the class for 100$ or more, so where is this "loss leader" with regards to nitrox training? This shop owner made certain she was out the OP's money plus whatever else he may have been interested in purchasing from her in the future. Not smart, nothing for me to sympathize with, no sir.

 

[redacted]

Exactly. Freedom of choice cuts both ways. It seems to me the situation worked out well for all parties concerned, and it is an interesting scenario for discussion.

Seems to me the shop and the OP entered into a contract which was formalized by the OP paying the shop for training. I would expect that all conditions of the contract were settled before the contract was established. Apparently that did not include that the OP was required to purchase any gear through the shop. When it came time for the shop to fulfill it's end of the contract, they unilaterally backed out. The OP had his check returned but was not compensated for other losses (time and $$ to attend the class).

What do you think would have happened if a student decided he really did not want to attend the class and tried to ask for his money back at the start of the first class?

 

[AbyssalPlains]

All I can say is this: The economy can't be that bad.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Seems to me the shop and the OP entered into a contract which was formalized by the OP paying the shop for training. I would expect that all conditions of the contract were settled before the contract was established. Apparently that did not include that the OP was required to purchase any gear through the shop. When it came time for the shop to fulfill it's end of the contract, they unilaterally backed out. The OP had his check returned but was not compensated for other losses (time and $$ to attend the class).

What do you think would have happened if a student decided he really did not want to attend the class and tried to ask for his money back at the start of the first class?

First, I agree 100% that it is unfortunate that the OP wasted time. No question about that.

What I think is this: I don't want to do business with people who don't want to do business with me. I have found that forcing them to do business with me against their will is counter-rpoductive for all parties concerned. For example, I wouldn't use a contract to force a babysitter to watch my children while I am out of the house.

In this case, once they reached the point where the LDS realized she did not want to do business with the OP, the only thing I would want to discuss is the best way to sever the relationship. Perhaps the way she chose was not the most pleasant, or the most financially beneficial for the OP, or the way we would choose were we running an LDS.

But in the end, it's pretty clear that the OP is happier doing business elsewhere, and she is happier doing business with other people. That's a good thing.

 

[Randy43068]

HOLY RESURRECTED FROM THE ARCHIVES BATMAN!!! You guys are really going to start arguing a thread that's been dead for 5 years?!?!

Now this ought to bring back some memories (nightmares) for some posters!




BTW, It's been a couple of years since the OP was last active on the board.

gives new meaning to "dead horse" doesn't it?

 

[ssidiv3r]

Short and simple, what happend is unfortunate, probably still happens and most likely won't stop happening any time soon

 

[Hallmac]

She said "I'll tell you what I am going to do I am going give your check back. The class is over because you have no appriciation of a local dive shop and the services we provide. You care more about money than service".

Wow, 5 plus years and still going.

Every time I read this, one thing that jumps out. (Bolded area.)

The owner accused the OP of the very thing she was doing.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

I think there is another option. (let me qualify by stating up front I am not a buisness owner, nor do I wish to be)

How about you take pride in what you do, and charge accordingly? Nobody begrudges a buisness person for providing a quality product and making a little money.

I am also not running an LDS, so we are on equal footing in arguing from ignorance

From my observation, LDS' are between a rock and a hard place where training is concerned, and the reason is because of lemons. With OW training, there is a strong information asymmetry, people who aren't divers know very little about the industry so they try to mitigate their risk by getting their training cheaply.

The dive shops all try to capture these newcomers by offering cheap training and making the money back on equipment, trips, and hopefully more profitable training like those PADI specialties.

If one LDS tries to charge a "fair price" on training, the only peopel who can recognize the value will be people who don't need the training any more. This leads to having an extremely small market, possibly smaller than can support an LDS.

I conjecture this is why you see the higher-end training costing more. If you think about it, you need classroom plus four-six dives for Trimix training. Why would it be more expensive than OW? The answer is that the Trimix trainee is more educated and realizes the value of paying a reasonable fee and having a good instructor.

Of course, there are still people who charge less for high end training, but they don't automatically capture ALL of the market for training because it's a more educated market.

So... my thesis is that OW training suffers from having uneducated customers, which leads them to select a training service based on the wrong factors, like sticker price or perhaps whether the shop is shiny and attractive.