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Don't do it, man. UP might cast one of his evil spells and the next thing you know... you're changing your name from Leadweight to Backplate! Be strong!
Just got back from a weekend with bp/wings
- Thread starter SeaJay
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Don't do it, man. UP might cast one of his evil spells and the next thing you know... you're changing your name from Leadweight to Backplate! Be strong!
LOLleadweight
Contributor
No doubt that it is beautiful UP, but I don't have a drysuit. I am heading out to Ambergris Caye on the 31st. Must cool the old jets until then.
Scuba
Contributor
Northeastwrecks,
I don't know why I'm responding to you, but here it is anyways.
This must be a first here, admitted by you, who, may I presume is a DIR adherent? You appear to be admitting that the conduct and some of what is said by this person, a founder and leader of DIR, is actually reprehensible and outlandish.
This behavior and propensity for outlandish claims is visible up and down the DIR club, if you only open your mind. I've seen a lot of it here.
He is just an example to make a point, not an exception.
What is wrong with the system is that for some reason many adherents have been lead or mislead to believe that their chosen gear and techniques are the absolute best for anyone entertaining any type of diving endevour. How many times have you seen the DIR adherents in the know here attempt to correct misinterpretations coming from the DIR supporters?
Specific points you ask for?
1. Computers add a level of redundancy to mental tracking that is more precise in tracking a dive profile, thus letting you know exactly where you stand in your deco plan, and they are not subject to the ever present risk (or certainty) of narcosis. Whether you agree this is useful or not, the fact remains you are not able to produce any evidence or argument, capable of withstanding objective scrutiny, in order to assert the claim that it is best not to use a computer. Seems you have mistaken your choice to mean it is the best PERIOD.
2. Presenting cave, and deep as safer than solo diving. Solo diving presents an increase in risk as does cave, wreck, deep. Yet only solo diving is presented as being highly risky. Again with no objective evidence to prove this assertion. On the contrary, an analysis of these types of diving may very well demonstrate there is a greater risk and skill level necessary for cave and wreck than solo. I do not have such a study to prove my contention therefore the qualifier "may". Since DIR presents no such qualifier, please present your "proof".
3. Failure to recognize individuality. This sport is open to many different people with many interests. For example: When you assert that the best choice in donating air is to donate the regulator in your mouth, you must take into account that some divers may have difficulty with this, while others may have a propensity for trouble when doing this. Clearly for them this may not be the best choice. Whether these divers need better training or should'nt dive at all is a different subject.
The same can be said for gear, configuration and techniques. Be specific about your claim and express the specific circumstances under which it is applicable, and you will have a chance of making a valid point. There is a cost, or other side of the coin, to everything. A gain here is a loss there. I know, you don't believe this!
As to the rest of your post where you continue employing your typical tatics, I'm bored by the way, once you have quickly dismissed the charges and absolved your beloved DIR and its adherents real and imagined, at least you didn't deny the charges this time, you then engage in an attempt to discredit the person making a point. Somehow deluding yourself in the false belief that if successful, NOT, you will have discredited the premise being made. Well, I just have to pity you here.
I don't know why I'm responding to you, but here it is anyways.
This must be a first here, admitted by you, who, may I presume is a DIR adherent? You appear to be admitting that the conduct and some of what is said by this person, a founder and leader of DIR, is actually reprehensible and outlandish.
This behavior and propensity for outlandish claims is visible up and down the DIR club, if you only open your mind. I've seen a lot of it here.
He is just an example to make a point, not an exception.
What is wrong with the system is that for some reason many adherents have been lead or mislead to believe that their chosen gear and techniques are the absolute best for anyone entertaining any type of diving endevour. How many times have you seen the DIR adherents in the know here attempt to correct misinterpretations coming from the DIR supporters?
Specific points you ask for?
1. Computers add a level of redundancy to mental tracking that is more precise in tracking a dive profile, thus letting you know exactly where you stand in your deco plan, and they are not subject to the ever present risk (or certainty) of narcosis. Whether you agree this is useful or not, the fact remains you are not able to produce any evidence or argument, capable of withstanding objective scrutiny, in order to assert the claim that it is best not to use a computer. Seems you have mistaken your choice to mean it is the best PERIOD.
2. Presenting cave, and deep as safer than solo diving. Solo diving presents an increase in risk as does cave, wreck, deep. Yet only solo diving is presented as being highly risky. Again with no objective evidence to prove this assertion. On the contrary, an analysis of these types of diving may very well demonstrate there is a greater risk and skill level necessary for cave and wreck than solo. I do not have such a study to prove my contention therefore the qualifier "may". Since DIR presents no such qualifier, please present your "proof".
3. Failure to recognize individuality. This sport is open to many different people with many interests. For example: When you assert that the best choice in donating air is to donate the regulator in your mouth, you must take into account that some divers may have difficulty with this, while others may have a propensity for trouble when doing this. Clearly for them this may not be the best choice. Whether these divers need better training or should'nt dive at all is a different subject.
The same can be said for gear, configuration and techniques. Be specific about your claim and express the specific circumstances under which it is applicable, and you will have a chance of making a valid point. There is a cost, or other side of the coin, to everything. A gain here is a loss there. I know, you don't believe this!
As to the rest of your post where you continue employing your typical tatics, I'm bored by the way, once you have quickly dismissed the charges and absolved your beloved DIR and its adherents real and imagined, at least you didn't deny the charges this time, you then engage in an attempt to discredit the person making a point. Somehow deluding yourself in the false belief that if successful, NOT, you will have discredited the premise being made. Well, I just have to pity you here.
ElectricZombie
Contributor
DIR does not look too fondly upon computers but, it does allow them. The DIRF book actually mentions computers and recommends that they only be used in addition to proper dive planning. For the type of dives a lot of the DIR/GUE guys do, it is better for them to make their own tables rather than rely on a computer. The main issue people raise is that divers become too dependent on their computers and don't actually understand what is going on, which seems to be true in my experience. That said, I use a computer for normal recreational diving along with conventional dive planning metods. (Tables, PC software, etc)
Sometimes individuality must be sacrificed for the greater good, increased safety. I wouldn't dive with someone who did not have an alternate air source just because I wanted to recognize their individuality. There has to be some sort of limit, you can't just allow anything. Some people have some very strange, if not dangerous ideas on how things should be done. Again, I think setting strict gear guidlines is a function of the type of advanced diving done by many DIR practitioners.
I don't think that anyone is saying that the average recreational diver HAS to be DIR. They are merely suggesting that adopting a DIR configuration would be helpful. People that suggest DIR are just trying to be helpful because they themselves have found something that works.
I hope this did not come off as though I were a "DIR Nazi", I'm not. (I dive with non-DIR people most of the time, and yes, they look at my rig like I'm from Mars.)
Scuba
Contributor
ElectricZombie,
You certainly have not come off as one of the possibly misguided zeolots so prevalent here. Perhaps those knowledgeable on DIR can start a thread thoroughly explaining the principals of DIR to clarify things.
It is my understanding that some computers are able to have a specific deco plan uploaded to it based on specific dive requirements. Whether this is the case using DIR "heuristics" deco model or not is unknown to me, but the creation of such a program is certainly possible.
Agreed that false reliace is an issue, one that can be corrected with education. False reliance can occur using tables if not well understood.
I also agree with your statement concerning individuality. I believe I was approaching it from a different perpective. DIR is a good choice available to divers, but not the best choice for everyone, as is so often emplied.
You certainly have not come off as one of the possibly misguided zeolots so prevalent here. Perhaps those knowledgeable on DIR can start a thread thoroughly explaining the principals of DIR to clarify things.
It is my understanding that some computers are able to have a specific deco plan uploaded to it based on specific dive requirements. Whether this is the case using DIR "heuristics" deco model or not is unknown to me, but the creation of such a program is certainly possible.
Agreed that false reliace is an issue, one that can be corrected with education. False reliance can occur using tables if not well understood.
I also agree with your statement concerning individuality. I believe I was approaching it from a different perpective. DIR is a good choice available to divers, but not the best choice for everyone, as is so often emplied.
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
Hm.
That's a great point... Yeah, I'm familiar with GI3's attitude towards gear other than DIR stuff. I've never personally met him, but he comes down on non-DIR quite heavily on all of his videos.
You're right... I wasn't even considering him in my statement above. I was making a generalized statement based on what I've seen on this and other scuba-related boards.
I have a PCa Ikelight that I absolutely love. It's this little tiny handheld light that rips out this brilliant white light. Sure, it's got a max burn time of about two hours. Sure, it eats batteries (6 AA batteries), and sure it overburns the bulb. It's also whoppingly effective at cutting through the murk in this area, and costs about $20 online. I've got a couple of them in my dive bag, almost like a disposable light.
I've never seen them flood, and they're way more effective than anyone else's lights... Save, of course, for the canisters and HID's and all of those things... But hey, we're talking $20 here.
GI3 would have a fit if he saw the light that I use. You shoulda heard what he said about lights that overburn their bulbs... In short, they're death traps... And all of that. Yadda, yadda.
I'm sure they are, in a cave, 300 feet down and 3 miles back. I just wanted to illuminate that lobster to see what color he really was.
I now own a Halcyon backup light so that when my PCa fails, I've got a backup. But performance for dollar, that little thing (which fits in the palm of my hand) is always there for me, ready to rip it's little heart out. I love the thing. And I won't be terribly heartbroken when I drop it off of a wall or leave it in a wreck or hand it to a buddy who ends up packing it up with his gear and taking it home with him. Oh yeah... Works great for snorkeling at night, too, which I did when I visited the manatee in Crystal River recently.
My point is that I'm familiar with "the DIR attitude." And yeah, I've seen it in "real DIR people." You're right. I wasn't even thinking about those people.
The disadvantage is that his delivery is krass and condemning, and I can see your point. The advantage is... Well... At least you know where he stands. And heck, wouldn't you rather dive world record dives with someone who doesn't "sugar coat" things? At least GI3 tells you WHY he doesn't like something. And remember, it IS just one guy's opinion, after all. Take the things you think are worthwhile from his rants and leave that which you don't.
No biggie.
Point made, though.
I'm sure you will have a wonderful time... and if you ever do get up here to dive... let me know.
tinman
Contributor
....here is a picture of a BC with the clip I use located on the lower left D ring (wrong side). I insert my hose into the half moon hose opening on the bottom of this clip. This is not the DIR approach. Look to UP or MHK for that, but this works for me on a regular BC on the lower right D ring and I don't see any downside to it since it releases quickly for OOA drills and I can reattach it easily. I might add that this is not the BC I use but the first one I could find. http://217.169.126.181/categorie.asp?cat=5 Let me know if this isn't clear enough...I can take a closeup picture this weekend of it actually setup if this isn't clear. I imagine there are better ways of doing this, but like yourself, I don't use a canister light currently and this is the best solution I could find. As always, I'm open to suggestions...
As pointed out by others, a bolt snap is very helpful to keep the long hose reg. in place on an upper right D ring when not in use.
Scuba
Contributor
leadweight, et al
Getting the discussion back on track here.
You have made various eloquent, well thought out observations about the current state of affairs on the Scubaboard. By definition this makes you a threat. A menace to the status quo and the interests of those who seek to preserve it.
Soon, I will not be able to devote the time I now do to these issues on Scubaboard. Not that anyone cares, but no doubt many will be relieved. Besides, its time for me to return to the reasons that brought me here in the first place:
To seek new knowledge necessary to make me a better, safer diver.
To share my knowledge when I can to help others.
To stay interested in diving in times of need.
To all you Valiant, Brave and Daring Warriors, who boldly engage in verbal combat over this hallowed ground. On which so many epic battles have been fought by the brave warriors who have come before us. To those of you Courages and Audacious enough, as your case may be, or foolish enough as in my case, to engage in verbal combat against the forces of a closed mind hellbent on propagating their dogma - I Wish You Luck.
I like to pass on to you the words that were passed on to me by one of those wise warrior in the Scubaboard Coliseum, during one of those epic battles:
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Getting the discussion back on track here.
You have made various eloquent, well thought out observations about the current state of affairs on the Scubaboard. By definition this makes you a threat. A menace to the status quo and the interests of those who seek to preserve it.
Soon, I will not be able to devote the time I now do to these issues on Scubaboard. Not that anyone cares, but no doubt many will be relieved. Besides, its time for me to return to the reasons that brought me here in the first place:
To seek new knowledge necessary to make me a better, safer diver.
To share my knowledge when I can to help others.
To stay interested in diving in times of need.
To all you Valiant, Brave and Daring Warriors, who boldly engage in verbal combat over this hallowed ground. On which so many epic battles have been fought by the brave warriors who have come before us. To those of you Courages and Audacious enough, as your case may be, or foolish enough as in my case, to engage in verbal combat against the forces of a closed mind hellbent on propagating their dogma - I Wish You Luck.
I like to pass on to you the words that were passed on to me by one of those wise warrior in the Scubaboard Coliseum, during one of those epic battles:
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
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