Jefferson Lake in late Sept.

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Tom,
Yea, that much time at 40 degrees "mucho hombre". I've been running some of the high altitude profiles lately and have been shocked at the programs results. I thought I'd let everyone else see what I've been seeing. Sometimes the program won't even produce a table, sometimes the red caution comes up. Maybe this program just isn't suited to 10,000 ft dives. It has made me think about being more careful.
Frank

Frank, and all,
I ran the same numbers through my spreadsheet, based solely upon the PADI RDP modified for altitude.
I used the following assumptions, similar to what Frank used, to see what I would get “the old fashioned way” (i.e., using the RDP with the application of altitude).
All altitudes are rounded up to the next 1000 foot, and depths are round down to what the RDP requires.

Started at 6,000 ft and ascended to 10,000 ft. Diving mix was air (21% O2). If this assumption is correct, that puts you in PG “H” upon arrival at the lake.
It takes about 45 minutes to park, unload, kit up, before entering the water. If this is correct, then the “surface interval” at 10,000 ft is 45 minutes, reducing the original PG “H” to PG “C” upon entry into the water. This means we have a RNT of 17 minutes for our 50 ft dive (see next step) before we even enter the water.

Assuming a “square profile” at 43 ft yields and EAD of 49.665 ft which rounds to 50 feet. At that depth, the Max. Bottom Time (NDL) is 80 minutes. Tom only spent 37 minutes (ABT) plus the 17 min RNT from above yields 54 min TBT, so NDLs weren’t violated on this dive. The O2 Partial Pressure =0.53 and the % of allowable O2=10%. The PG upon exiting this dive is PG “R”.

Using Frank’s assumption of a 1 hour (60 minutes) SI, the PG for entering the next dive is PG “G”.

Again assuming a “square profile” for the next dive, the 52 ft yields an EAD of 60.06ft which rounds to 70 ft. Yeah, the way the math works, 52 ft at 10,000 ft altitude rounds to 70 feet for use on the RDP. Using this 70 ft along with the PG “G” gives us an RNT of 18 min. The Max NDL (from Table 3) for 70 ft is 40 minutes. Since we have an RNT of 18 minutes, we only have a remaining ABT of 22 minutes. This is where the analysis blows up. In the example dive, Tom spent 35 minutes at this depth (assuming square profile). This exceeds the Table limits – as my OW instructor would say “you just killed yourself”.

Ok, to try to get this to work, I decreased the reported 52 ft to 51 ft. Remember, that due to rounding, the 52 ft went to 60.06 at altitude, which then rounded to 70 ft for use with the RDP. If we use 51 ft, that yields and EAD = 58.9 ft, which rounds to 60 ft for the RDP. This gives us a Max NDL of 55 min (vice 40 min). Subtracting the 21 min (at 60 ft) RNT, we still bust the NDL by 1 minute. So, let’s decrease the dive time of the second dive by 1 min to see what happens. (Of course, we could also increase either SI to lower the dive #2 beginning PG also). Using 34 min dive time, we come in right at the NDL (TBT =55 min). The O2 Partial Pressure =0.59. This yields a % of allowable O2=5% and the cumulative O2% = 15% The PG upon exiting this dive is PG “W”.

Based upon the above, this dive could have been accomplished if the depth of dive #2 was 1 foot less, and the time of dive #2 was one minute less.

All this assumes that the depth measured is true depth. That is, the instrument measuring the depth is calibrated to read correctly at 10,000 (most analog gauges are calibrated at sea level) and that it is measuring in feet –fresh water (FWF),not salt-water (again, most analog gauges measure SWF). Computers may compensate for either or both, but my manual doesn’t say how it does it. I can only set my computer in “ranges” (0-2300ft, 2300-4900ft, 4900-7900ft, and above 7900 ft). I included the O2 data for comparison to VPM. Using air (21% O2) we really don’t have to worry about it.

I don’t know how VPM works and I have no training in decompression diving (to include decompression stops and different decompression gases). It would be interesting if Frank were to make the slight changes to the input to VPM, and see if would allow a non decompression dive.

Regarding Jefferson Lake, it doesn’t look like we will need to take any passes or higher altitude adjustments into consideration on the return trip, since all our diving will have been at the highest altitude. Does this make sense? Do my calculations make sense?
 
I'm not going to go through your calculations, I'll assume they are correct.

However the problem with analysis done by both Frank, and yourself is that they are based on flat profiles. Tom uses the Atom 2.0 or Epic, and as I have that computer I do know that it factors in Altitude, and manages multi-level profiles. It calculates true depth, but does compensate for altitude. This computer actually shows you the altitude adjustment unlike my Aeris Atmos II. I know it works because at home it displays the adjusted Elevation at EL 9. I live at about 8950ft. In Denver is shows EL 6, and Denver is at 5280ft. So nice to know, this thing is close enough for Gov. work.

Since Tom and his Brother are alive, well, and posting, we can assume their profiles were safe. I think it's always a good idea to know max NDL's at Max planned depth before starting any dive. However unless one wants to get out a wheel, and drive the dive based on exact times at multiple depths based on the plan, it's very difficult to emulate what your computer is going to use for it's NDL calculations.

IMO a computer is much better able to chart one's Nitrogen load than anything walking on this earth. Do I trust my computer. Absolutely not! That is why I have two! :D
 
The surface interval you used was off too. Think more in terms of being at Santa Rosa with Ron, try to have only a 1 hour SI. Sorry Ron, I know, I know your almost ready:)

Tom

:rofl3::rofl3:

The reason I'm still diving places like the Hole, and the CO mudpits of doom is because I relax, and have fun. Rushing is no way to go through life! :mooner:

Believe me, in COZ, FL, or other fun destinations, I'm generally the first in, and the last out! :D But I'm not looking for max BT diving in Aurora! :shakehead:
 
I'm not going to go through your calculations, I'll assume they are correct.

However the problem with analysis done by both Frank, and yourself is that they are based on flat profiles.

Ron,

You are correct. I stated that up front. My post was two-fold. One, to let some of the people know how altitude diving can affect your profile, and shouldn't be ignored, and two, to compare my results with Franks.

I think there is a general lack of concern for altitude diving. For some, it is a conscious decision to ignore altitude. But, for others, it's a lack of understanding.

This was in no way intended to critique Tom's dive. It was only (for me anyway) an excercise to apply principles taught in OW class to real life, fully acknowledging that it wasn't exactly what happened. And to compare the "old style" RDP tables to a "newer" softaware application. Tom's dive merely (for me) served to supply some data to evaluate.
 
I ran into the square profile problem when I dove out at Lake tahoe as well. The fact is that in their open water courses, they teach the wheel, with multi-level profiles, otherwise you would be exceeding your tables after every dive.

I personally trust my computer. Of course, outside of the blue hole, my dives around here have been at Chatfield and Aurora which were fairly short shallow dives also.
 
:rofl3::rofl3:

The reason I'm still diving places like the Hole, and the CO mudpits of doom is because I relax, and have fun. Rushing is no way to go through life! :mooner:

Believe me, in COZ, FL, or other fun destinations, I'm generally the first in, and the last out! :D But I'm not looking for max BT diving in Aurora! :shakehead:

And here I thought it was because you liked my company. :coffee:
 
Guys,
I'm so pleased to see such a lively discussion about our profiles. I'll bring a laptop with the V-planner program tomorrow. We'll have something to do during the SI.
Tom, We'll report the results of our "play" dives.
Frank
 
Frank, and all,

It takes about 45 minutes to park, unload, kit up, before entering the water. If this is correct, then the “surface interval” at 10,000 ft is 45 minutes, reducing the original PG “H” to PG “C” upon entry into the water. This means we have a RNT of 17 minutes for our 50 ft dive (see next step) before we even enter the water.

I am glad you ran these numbers. I had forgotten about the RNT for just going to a higher altitude. We do altitude dives around here all the time and we use our computers so much that, at least I have gotten a little lax about keeping profiles in mind. Of course, doing our shallow short dives a Aurora does tend to make the whole thing 'seem' simple.
 
Guys,
I'm so pleased to see such a lively discussion about our profiles. I'll bring a laptop with the V-planner program tomorrow. We'll have something to do during the SI.
Tom, We'll report the results of our "play" dives.
Frank

Frank,

I’ll bring my little spreadsheet too, so we can compare. I’m sure your software is more advanced, but I’d like to see how close I can estimate just using the tables, and formulas.


One thing that I was thinking about last night is that most of us rely on our computers. And I’m sure they do a very good job up to a point. Regarding altitude dives – I don’t think computers can recognize that we have driven (or flown) to a higher altitude. Yes, they know when you turn them on, that they are at altitude, but they don’t know from what altitude you started, or how long you have been at that altitude. So, I don’t see how a computer can factor in the starting pressure group (i.e., for those of you living at between 5000 and 6000 feet, traveling to 10000 feet, there is a 4000 foot difference). Using the formulas I have, you go down two PGs /1000 feet increase in altitude. That would equate to 8 PGs which is PG “H”. Next, you would apply the appropriate SI to determine the PG to enter Table 3 to determine the RNT for the first dive. Can any of the recreational computers we would typically be wearing acknowledge any of this? I know mine can’t (at least there is nothing in the manual about it). Nor can I input a “previous dive”.

What is seems to me is it is like taking a 44 minute dive at 35 feet (or a 19 minute dive at 70 feet) and then putting on your computer just before you are ready to make the next dive(s). Granted, if we wait for about 2 hours before diving, it really doesn’t make much difference, other than for me (and maybe others?) to understand all the ramifications, and to understand what our computers are really telling us, and what they can’t measure.

Am I misinterpreting or missing something here?

Dan,

I don't think we have too much to worry about when we dive "local", since the starting and diving altitude is about the same. Our computers will handle the rest of the dive. But, as I stated above, I'm not sure that's true when we do go up in altitude from our "home".
 
It would be interesting to see how close we are to limits on multi-level dives though the day at Jefferson and Turquoise, both at 10,000 ft. Ron I thought you would like my little joke :) . Wish I could join you all but some of us must work.

Tom
 

Back
Top Bottom