Jacket BC or Wing BC

[danvolker]

WOW! I find your analogy and the over all premise outlandish. The backplate & wing is not more streamlined than a proper fitting Stabilizer jacket. If you are putting much air in these things you are poorly weighted and this will have a far greater effect on streamlining than any other source. NO option for buoyancy compensation truly stands out as all around better; they all have their "UP's & downs". The notion that a backplate and wings is akin to a race bike with high end materials and components is laughable. It is just an air filled sack at your back instead of around you or at at your sides. Pluses for this include modularity, options for high lift capacity (IF NEEDED, MOST DO NOT!!!), a clean uncluttered front and excellent horizontal stability when the bladder is inflated at any ratio of it's capacity. Streamlining is NOT one of it's pluses as so many people seem to advocate. The differences in drag of a backplate wings relative to a stab jacket is almost zero. Even an 18lb wing still has a backplate that sticks out further from the back than the small stab jackets backpack. But comparing equivalent lift which is 60lbs for a Stab jacket in Large to a 60lb wing you will not find any significant difference in drag. in fact my bet is that the stab jacket when only lightly inflated is more streamlined than the equivalent BP/Wing setup. I bet the divers body type is the largest component of underwater drag. I know that when i just use a backpack with a single tank that I am more streamlined than with any BC. I think the Cousteau team way back in the 70's utilized drag reducing tank cabinetry containing high pressure cylinders of a small form factor. This along with tight fitting wet-suits and fit divers were probably the most "streamlined" condition I have seen in SCUBA.

Well, you are wrong. I would also guess you would fit into group number one. No chance whatsover you fit into group 3.
This is what you are really reacting to

 

[mictrik]

Well, you are wrong. I would also guess you would fit into group number one. No chance whatsover you fit into group 3.
This is what you are really reacting to

Your analogy is at best silly and of no relevance; I actually wonder if you have some stake in selling backplates? All of the BC's have their positives and negatives your narrative implies that the best option is the backplate and wings and that only if you are in a select "ELITE" group will you able to discern the difference that makes it stand out. That notion is patently false. I and many people I know have been diving in the water around New York & New Jersey since the late 70's. Many do choose a wing & back plate and many do not. Our dives are at least as rigorous as experienced in South Florida due to the cold and other conditions typical for the north Atlantic. Your dogma regarding a particular buoyancy option is misleading for those who are considering the various options available to them. I do agree however that reducing drag is something to strive for. I for example typically wear my gauges on my forearm & wrist but when digging for artifacts under sand & mud I may choose to bring a console instead so that my gauges are not in the way.

"I would also guess you would fit into group number one. No chance whatsover you fit into group 3. This is what you are really reacting to "

You should read what wrote out loud and listen to it... I actually find it funny!

My goal was/is not to promote the Stabilizer Jacket so much as it is to ensure that it's merits are not undermined by over zealous advocacy of another option. I also believe that there is a difference between the stabilizer jacket and an adjustable design but perhaps you must be in a special category (perhaps your category 1 or maybe my category 4) to discern the difference.

Enjoy your concocted categories and your self proclaimed status amongst the Elite of your category 3!

 

[danvolker]

Your analogy is at best silly and of no relevance; I actually wonder if you have some stake in selling backplates?

No stake at all....I just like to share what I know works.

All of the BC's have their positives and negatives your narrative implies that the best option is the backplate and wings and that only if you are in a select "ELITE" group will you able to discern the difference that makes it stand out. That notion is patently false.

This sounds exactly like what would be said by a shop owner that sells primarily the traditional BC....... Inventory over function......
All BC's do not have good points..some really are very lame, and would be a liability to a diver who might otherwise progress much faster in skills.

I and many people I know have been diving in the water around New York & New Jersey since the late 70's. Many do choose a wing & back plate and many do not. Our dives are at least as rigorous as experienced in South Florida due to the cold and other conditions typical for the north Atlantic.

Sure the water is cold. Many of your guys enjoy crawling around on the bottom like Billy Goats...., and the norm is anchor diving...meaning you really have nothing we would consider even remotely related to "drift currents". I am not saying there is anything wrong with muck diving....we have divers here that love this at the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park every week....But this is not challenging diving by the currents or marine life....the north is mostly challenging for the cold and low vis...these ARE challenges, but not challenges that will be effected much by choice of either vest, bp/wing, or pufferfish BC.

 

[mictrik]

No stake at all....I just like to share what I know works.

They ALL work and work well. Your stake in the BP/W is for the most part a personal opinion!

This sounds exactly like what would be said by a shop owner that sells primarily the traditional BC....... Inventory over function......
All BC's do not have good points..some really are very lame, and would be a liability to a diver who might otherwise progress much faster in skills.

I do not own a shop and I am sure that some shops do promote what they have as is the case for a bicycle shop too. However, if you are in a good shop with a responsible owner they will listen to your needs, wants, desires etc... and get for you what is right. I meant as should be inferred that ALL BC TYPES meaning 1) an adjustable jacket (most common), The stabilizer Jacket (less common), BP/wings (less-common). There are other sub variations but these are the basic types. I prefer the stabilizer non weight integrated design of old. When possible I prefer just a backpack and a tank so I am certainly not trying to get anyone to buy anything. I love the BP/W for having the the buoyancy compensation while leaving the front open for tools or other accessories. I like and use the Stabilizer jacket & the backplate Wing. I am actually not fond of most jacket style adjustable BC's, not sure if they can be seen as dangerous but i have my OPINIONS on them.

Sure the water is cold. Many of your guys enjoy crawling around on the bottom like Billy Goats...., and the norm is anchor diving...meaning you really have nothing we would consider even remotely related to "drift currents". I am not saying there is anything wrong with muck diving....we have divers here that love this at the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park every week....But this is not challenging diving by the currents or marine life....the north is mostly challenging for the cold and low vis...these ARE challenges, but not challenges that will be effected much by choice of either vest, bp/wing, or pufferfish BC.

Oh god, I am sure that there can be many challenging conditions in Florida. As you could or should imagine I as person from New York have spent a fair bit of time diving the common wrecks in your area. I have done drift dives at night on the Rodeo 25 for example; of course there are more challenging situations afforded in Florida. The conditions taken as normal in the North Atlantic are on average pretty tough and the use of an anchor line in many cases a "jonline" is a safety precaution and sometimes a necessity!! "Drift" diving many of our wrecks in the conditions common here would be nothing short of fool hardy. The currents at times in some areas are simply too powerful and unpredictable to safely drift dive. A diver lost his life on the Andrea Doria because his Jonline broke while decompressing; current up-swell apparently brought him to the surface in seconds and that was it. The conditions here can involve cold under 40º, strong unpredictable currents, total lack of visibility, rough seas, and great depth as you could find anywhere. In addition many divers up here got into the wreck diving for the artifacts and artifact retrieval can be physically taxing especially when the artifact is affixed to a corroded wreck. If you think that the "muck" diving here is a "walk in the park" then all i can say is the same as i said before and that is that you are foolish. You are welcome to drift dive the Texas Tower, The Andrea Doria or any other deep, dark, current ridden dive site here but i and I am sure many others would advice strongly against it!

 

[Teamcasa]

Lets go back to the cycling analogy, because it really does apply better than any other conceptualization attempted so far.

I agree that the cycling analogy works but more to point out that (in my estimation) 99.5% of the cyclists ability to propel himself is his individual strength fitness level and skill. Not his bike's configuration. As I pointed out, a pro rider would always beat me, even on a beach cruiser.

Now to compare the difference between a jacket and BP/W is nothing like comparing a beach cruiser to a high end racing bike is just silly. The difference may be closer to comparing medium priced 10 speed and one that costs a few hundred more. But it is all still in that .5% range when if comes to how well a diver performs.

Switching to a BP/W from a jacket will not transform you into an excellent diver. And an excellent diver, no matter what their gear choice is, will still be an excellent diver. Implying that any diver that chooses to use a jacket BC is somehow not capable of becoming an excellent diver without switching to a BP/W is either arrogant, naive or simply incorrect.

 

[danvolker]

Oh god, I am sure that there can be many challenging conditions in Florida. As you could or should imagine I as person from New York have spent a fair bit of time diving the common wrecks in your area. I have done drift dives at night on the Rodeo 25 for example; of course there are more challenging situations afforded in Florida. The conditions taken as normal in the North Atlantic are on average pretty tough and the use of an anchor line in many cases a "jonline" is a safety precaution and sometimes a necessity!! "Drift" diving many of our wrecks in the conditions common here would be nothing short of fool hardy. The currents at times in some areas are simply too powerful and unpredictable to safely drift dive. A diver lost his life on the Andrea Doria because his Jonline broke while decompressing; current up-swell apparently brought him to the surface in seconds and that was it. The conditions here can involve cold under 40º, strong unpredictable currents, total lack of visibility, rough seas, and great depth as you could find anywhere. In addition many divers up here got into the wreck diving for the artifacts and artifact retrieval can be physically taxing especially when the artifact is affixed to a corroded wreck. If you think that the "muck" diving here is a "walk in the park" then all i can say is the same as i said before and that is that you are foolish. You are welcome to drift dive the Texas Tower, The Andrea Doria or any other deep, dark, current ridden dive site here but i and I am sure many others would advice strongly against it!

There will be no agreement between you and I on the BC issue...and I am sure we can agree on that
As to the wrecks in Lauderdale, they are practically without currents, and can be dived by anchoring. The Rodeo 25 is a novice wreck dive, with no challenge. The only challending dives in Lauderdale are in 225 to 280 feet of water, where Lauderdale diving begins to really shine...the 120 foot or less areas in Lauderdale are pretty tame and lame..to me.

Our wrecks in Palm Beach get far more currents and far more large marine life, these currents being much stronger on some days than others.....on a normal day, on a wreck like the Zion or the Bonaire, you would not be able to anchor it. No one would consider a jon line, that is for mild current scenarios...

Our advanced deep wrecks, like the Skycliffe at 225 feet, sit in currents that would make a jon line approach suicidal.....Palm Beach created a drift style of diving deep wrecks ( to over 280 feet in huge currents) that has us drift in at a nice fast descent speed, but with no exertion....and then get into the ship from the lee side. Deco in done in the water collumn, free floating. Michael H Kane used to do the Doria, years ago, and he used to think their jon line ideas were valid...after he did a few of our advanced wrecks, he forever altered this misconception.. You guys use them for the very poor vis, and maybe the large seas that make it hard for a boat to see a SMB or Torpedo float with Flag....althout we dive here sometimes to 10 and 12 foot seas, and my torpedo float with dive flag is easily visible.
....

Here is a night dive with currents that would make the jon line an extremely dangerous choice....on one of our recreational depth wrecks sitting in about 90 feet of water....http://youtu.be/qeQp5aqy2_s?hd=1 in several places you can see how fast the current is, as it pushes the Goliath groupers to the point they are swimming at 45 degree angles to move through it... Once in the protection of structure, there is not problem with the currents....but when you want to see something like a spawning event, you need a diving technique that suits the conditions.....These fish are typically aggregating at high current structures. Using a bp/w, having slick in the water trim, and good drift diving techniques ( how to use the bottom contours like a white water kayaker) all come into play for this.

---------- Post added ----------

I agree that the cycling analogy works but more to point out that (in my estimation) 99.5% of the cyclists ability to propel himself is his individual strength fitness level and skill. Not his bike's configuration. As I pointed out, a pro rider would always beat me, even on a beach cruiser.

Now to compare the difference between a jacket and BP/W is nothing like comparing a beach cruiser to a high end racing bike is just silly. The difference may be closer to comparing medium priced 10 speed and one that costs a few hundred more. But it is all still in that .5% range when if comes to how well a diver performs.

Hi Dave,
I don't know if you have heard of Ralph Clemente, but he was one of the most spectacular cyclists in South florida for over 20 years. A category one rider ( Olympic level), Ralph could get in the front of one of the big 70 person pacelines on A1A, and run the pace up over 35 mph and keep it there till the 70 person group dropped to 20, then 10, and then just 4 or 5.
On a few occaisions, as a joke, he would show up on a mountain bike. He would usually be able to stay with the paceline for most of the ride, but would not really have any place in the final mile leading to the big sprints. There have been only one or two other riders who have ever tried this, and been able to stay with a fast pack --on a mountain bike.

My point though...was that someone that likes pedaling at 12 mph, on a cruiser or a mountain bike, will not have any interest in getting on a $9000 race bike, and trying to ride faster. This is not what they like to do, and they would not care for the feel of the race bike. They would not want to ride fast, either.

I agree...if you are talking about the bikes in the fast paceline, there is not a huge difference between most of the bikes in how well the riders do on a 25 mile ride averaging 25 to 32 mph....With the exception of the full aero time trial bikes.... Strong riders can pedal away when the wind conditions are right, with the aero bikes, and the pack may never catch them. For me, it is somewhere between a 3 and 4 mph sustained speed difference...I have the full Aero Fuji Time Trial bike....I used to have a Pinarello Prince ( full on road race or crit bike), and while it is a legendary bike, on a road like A1A, the aerodynamics of the Time Trial bike overwhelm all the other issues of the Pinarello. I have been on a 2 man breakaway with Ralph--the pack never caught us from the start....chasing hard the whole time...Ralph was much faster than me on a normal ride or in a time trial on an aero bike, but on this day, he was using a traditional race bike, and I was using an aero bike...the Extra 3 or 4 mph my bike gave me, was the Holy Grail. Ralph had to put out much more power than I did for the ride. I will say this again..Ralph is a much faster, better cyclist than me....but at this high speed level with no hiding in a paceline..just the two of us to share the draft, power takes a back seat to aerodynamics.... I ride at a Cat 3 level...Ralph was riding at a cat 1 level...Big difference.


Water is so dense, just increasing speed a tiny bit has enormous implications in power from propulsion, and also in how much drag you have....this is why I see the cycling anology effective, as it shows how much more power it takes to just go from 21 to 23 mph....and how someone who can hold 25 mph is inhuman compared to the person that maxes at 23. That 2 mph is huge.
Underwater, just adding a half a mile per hour is a huge big deal. Adding another one gets even crazier, and so on. At some point, aerodynamics makes a huge difference.

The bp/wing won't magically make someone a better diver. But it won't limit a person that wants to improve, that has the innate coordination and drive to train hard, and to optimimze.....the pufferfish bc WILL limit this same person.

There are very streamlined vests that are used by Palm Beach divers in extreme currents, and they are fine diving with good bp/wing divers.

The marketplace has many non-streamlined vests also..... A backplate and 30 pound wind, rigged DIR style with no danglies, is just going to be slick...And like I said, you CAN accomplish slick if you know what vest to look for, and how to rig it....Too many divers do not.

---------- Post added ----------

***when I first linked the video in my last post, I used the wrong video....the right link is in now, but here it is again... http://youtu.be/qeQp5aqy2_s?hd=1 This does a good job of showing the currents on advanced Palm Beach dive.....Dives you would not ever try to have a boat anchor for.

 

[Teamcasa]

The bp/wing won't magically make someone a better diver. But it won't limit a person that wants to improve, ...

On this we agree.

.....the pufferfish bc WILL limit this same person.

Only if they try to use a jacket BC in a situation where a BP/W is clearly called for. (The pejorative terms only serve to alienate your intended audience.)

There are very streamlined vests that are used by Palm Beach divers in extreme currents, and they are fine diving with good bp/wing divers.

Key word being extreme. Clearly, in extreme, caves, deep and other tech dives, a BP/W is called for. Nice, warm and calm reef dives - not much a difference.

The marketplace has many non-streamlined vests also..... A backplate and 30 pound wind, rigged DIR style with no danglies, is just going to be slick...And like I said, you CAN accomplish slick if you know what vest to look for, and how to rig it....Too many divers do not.

On this we do agree except I don't rig mine DIR, I rig it IMG style

 

[danvolker]

On this we agree.

Only if they try to use a jacket BC in a situation where a BP/W is clearly called for. (The pejorative terms only serve to alienate your intended audience.)

I was actually not expecting to be interpreted as such...but I can see how this may be the result.....What I should have indicated better, is that there are some vest and traditional bc's that are extremely bulky, and which are so open and exposed with so much surface, that they have enormous drag. While I don't recall the mfg brand, I had to use a rental BC a few months ago, and was blown away at how much of my normal glide was entirely lost with each kick stroke...
I did not consider this to be anything close to a good vest bc...I considered it to be the worst and bulkiest, and I use the pufferfish analogy to describe the worst kind of vest, but NOT all vests in general.

The big point being, MANY dive shops will NOT differentiate between the massively puffy and high drag vest bc's , and the streamlined ones...in fact, I think they are given the advantage in some cases, because more additional gear can be stuffed into the pufferfish style bulky bc's....

As long as divers refuse to admit that there are situations any of us can be in, where it is better to be in a low drag bc, then new divers will keep getting stuck with the junk that will make them worse divers ( divers that are more helpless than they should be, in a challenging situation). I just don;t see any reason for any diver to feel an advantage to having a huge, bulky , high drag BC.... I think it is not knowing any better that causes or allows this....

Ok, I give up....what is rigging IMG style ?

 

[mictrik]

There will be no agreement between you and I on the BC issue...and I am sure we can agree on that
As to the wrecks in Lauderdale, they are practically without currents, and can be dived by anchoring. The Rodeo 25 is a novice wreck dive, with no challenge. The only challending dives in Lauderdale are in 225 to 280 feet of water, where Lauderdale diving begins to really shine...the 120 foot or less areas in Lauderdale are pretty tame and lame..to me.

Our wrecks in Palm Beach get far more currents and far more large marine life, these currents being much stronger on some days than others.....on a normal day, on a wreck like the Zion or the Bonaire, you would not be able to anchor it. No one would consider a jon line, that is for mild current scenarios...

Our advanced deep wrecks, like the Skycliffe at 225 feet, sit in currents that would make a jon line approach suicidal.....Palm Beach created a drift style of diving deep wrecks ( to over 280 feet in huge currents) that has us drift in at a nice fast descent speed, but with no exertion....and then get into the ship from the lee side. Deco in done in the water collumn, free floating. Michael H Kane used to do the Doria, years ago, and he used to think their jon line ideas were valid...after he did a few of our advanced wrecks, he forever altered this misconception.. You guys use them for the very poor vis, and maybe the large seas that make it hard for a boat to see a SMB or Torpedo float with Flag....althout we dive here sometimes to 10 and 12 foot seas, and my torpedo float with dive flag is easily visible.
....

Here is a night dive with currents that would make the jon line an extremely dangerous choice....on one of our recreational depth wrecks sitting in about 90 feet of water....Search for the Spawn...A Goliath Event - YouTube in several places you can see how fast the current is, as it pushes the Goliath groupers to the point they are swimming at 45 degree angles to move through it... Once in the protection of structure, there is not problem with the currents....but when you want to see something like a spawning event, you need a diving technique that suits the conditions.....These fish are typically aggregating at high current structures. Using a bp/w, having slick in the water trim, and good drift diving techniques ( how to use the bottom contours like a white water kayaker) all come into play for this.

"you need a diving technique that suits the conditions" I totally agree with that! I also agree that we should strive to be as streamlined as possible for any condition but especially in high currents. I watched and enjoyed your video! I confirm that you were in a high current situation (bubbles) but what a beautiful dive and you had many obstructions to "hide" from the current.

Yes the Rodeo 25 was a while ago for (more than 10 years) but I liked the drift in. Current was minimal and it was a very easy dive. I was actually very impressed when we drifted in to the top of the wreck without missing; I really thought for sure we would miss it. If you can drift into your destination and hit your mark routinely then I think that is a great way to go.
Floating deco in very high current sounds difficult to manage and not much fun. This is where an anchor & jonline are used up in the north East; not sure why you would consider an anchor / jonline a liability in high current? Maybe setting the mooring is too difficult? We almost never have visibility like South Florida and the Water is always cold. Even far shallower dives can become difficult here due to the environment. I would much rather dive in your waters, wish it was like that here.

 

[kdsmithjr]

Hi all, I bought a jacket style BC, but I'm hearing that a Wing style may be better. Especially since I am a very ambitious new diver and already have mulitple wreck dives planned in the Atlantic. Any advice or pros and cons of each style would be appreciated.

I can't tell how many dives you have on you, but you say you are a new diver. I'm new too, but i have about 130 dives and an advanced card. I don't disparage your plans...mainly because you say you are "ambitious"...but your question leads me to believe you still have some holes in your knowledge (we all do) so, at this point, i might borrow a phrase and say.....pump yer brakes.

There are differences between a jacket style and back inflation/wing styles that would be significant to divers with particular goals in mind. To say one is for a more advanced diver would be both too simplistic and inaccurate. That being said....

The back inflation/wing styles have less "stuff" in front of you and may feel more 'open' if what you are doing on a particular dive is primarily close and right in front of you. Photography comes to mind immediately. It's not to say that back inflation/wing styles won't provide the floation you might need at some point in your dive, but the action of the BCD will be primarily behind you and 'out of the way' so to speak. Jacket styles surround you with floatation and, some say, are more 'balanced' on the surface. You can float fairly vertically with no or almost no imput on your part. With some back inflation/wing styles, you have to "set up" your floating posture on the surface. Some will describe it more like, (from an uninflated bc), kick back slightly as you add air. This will put your back more on top of the floatation and keep your face out of the water. Without such a 'tecnnique' you might find a decided forward, face-in-the-water push as you inflate the bcd at the surface. As you know, with jacket inflation, even a fully inflated bcd will just make you float like a marshmallow on the surface. Because back inflation/wing BCD's are designed to be streamlined, you probably will find that (compared to jacket styles) they lack as many pockets and other nooks and crannies of jacket styles. You can buy add-on pockets, but keep in mind the whole point with the back inflation/wing style is being more streamlined.

Lastly, wreck diving requires that you have spot on control of bouyancy (having a streamlined bcd will augment that in a wreck environment). If your bouyancy control is off, depending on the wreck and where you are in it, you can get yourself into a zero visibility situation is a split second. A couple of night dives might help you ramp up your comfort with low visibility situations, though night diving's low visibility isn't constant like in a silting situation.

I almost forgot to say that, in today's competitive market that the "controversy" spawns bcd's that claim to have the advantages of both (surprise...who'da thunk.) it's not surprising that modern engineering (and a long history of both being on the market) would yield bcds with both characteristics...although devotees of either might say that those bcd's that claim both characteristics are a compromise.

Good luck.