maj75:
About two months ago, my family did a resort course in the BVI. There were six of us and two instructors. It was very professional and a terrific intro to scuba. My wife and I would not be certified NAUI today, if we had not done the resort course and enjoyed it so much.
IMO, your statements about basic training are overly broad. SCUBA is like any other risk/reward activity. As a general rule, there is no such thing as too much training. However, everyone has to start somewhere. Most important is that the new diver "has to know his limitations."
Yes but where do they get their ideas of what their limitations are? IMO, there are enough essential skills that are not taught or taught poorly in entry level training that few newly certified divers can do a good job of even the simplest dives in the most benign environments. Note, that I didn't have that opinion when I was a new diver. That opinion came with more training, time spent training other divers and lots more diving experience.
I see far more posts in the Accidents and Incidents Forum where the victims would appear to have had more than basic training(or their first dives). I don't recall any "victims" from a resort course. These courses are generally done at a depth where an ascent, while exhaling, will not be a problem.
I wonder if there is a statistical number of dives that are the most dangerous. Somewhere after the first few, without an instructor where the confidence curve overcomes the competence curve.
A look at the DAN accident report which is really a presentation of raw data...it doesn't really include any statistical calculations. The data seems to suggest that divers with little training (can't really get less than a discover program can you?) and divers with little recent experience are a high risk group. A pre-entry level diver would seem to fit both.
I haven't heard of lots of discover program participants being killed but a HUGE number of them seem to hurt their ears...see my last post, they haven't learned buoyancy control or had much practice at ascents and descents yet so you'd expect them to have equalization problems and they do. I owned a dive shop and I certified a ton of divers who had first become interested in a resort course somplace. Just about every one reported some degree of ear injury. They don't die because they are totally dependant on another diver to take care of critical aspects of the dive and usually that diver manages to bring them back alive.
This thread is the perfect example. The pre-entry level diver had no idea how to check his own gear and ended up finishing the dive with an ESA which he was not yet trained in. He did a trust me dive with some one who wasn't very trust worthy. If you don't know much about diving what even qualifies you to decide who you're going to trust? Put this in perspective and you'll see that a skilled diver could dive with that same oporator until the cows come home and will never be in any danger because he can check his own equipment, plan and manage and conduct a dive with his own buddy.
Obviously the dives done after a significant layoff are risky. Reminds me of a letter I recently saw in one of the diving magazines where the guy says he is certified but has not dived in 10 or 12 years. "Should he take a refresher and will his equipment be OK?" I thought the response should have been, "If you have to ask this question, your certification should be pulled and start your training over."
Dives after a layoff may or may not be risky. That would depend on the dive and the skill level of the diver. There are plenty of divers who could lay off for many many years and still be far more skilled in the water than what is required to become certified. Probably far more skilled than most OW instructors you'll find too. I wouldn't lay off for all those years and go and do a big cave dive but I certainly wouldn't have any trouble diving provided I chose the dive appropriately.
Has there ever been any thought to having certifications expire if not used for some period of time?
Of course there has and at least one agency does have expiring certs. But...which one of my certs would you pull? I have a box full from several different agencies. you want to pull my OW card? ok, I 'll use a trimix card or a rescue card or maybe an old instructor card.
Of course the other point is that a certification isn't a license. In most countries you can dive without any certification. Resorts and parks may require them but you can buy gear and jump in the water without permission from any agency. It's a certificate of completion. There isn't any one trying to pull your college degree is there?
but, ok, we're going to pull a card if it isn't used. How does any one know how much diving I've been doing? Maybe I don't dive at resorts or on charters and rather just go jump in when I want...which is exactly what I usually do. So even if we could make the logic work somehow, you'd never be able to enforce it.
Just because there are lots of vacation resort divers doesn't mean that it makes sense to lump every one into that catagory. It's a skill and experience thing not a time thing. While skills do degrade with time, we can't apply the same time limits to all divers because there skill degredation isn't starting from the same place and is effected by time differently.
.
