Island Ventures in Key Largo Florida

[Jim Lapenta]

now it's the original posters fault because he didn't come to SB to find out what the real scoop was on a particular place????


never mind that the Dive Ops' website is a bit vague as already mentioned.

Is the onus on SB to set the record straight and clarify the Dive Ops policy or is it theirs?

No it's the OP's fault for booking a trip without finding out about all the dives. You do not need to come here to do that. The responsibility for deciding on what dives to do falls on the diver himself. Too many people let others do everything for them. If the op's site is a bit vague so friggin what? There is a thing called a search engine. Yahoo, google, etc. Type in spiegel grove and read a little bit. It should be obvious this is an advanced dive, Anyone not smart enough to figure that out or ill trained enough to think anybody can do this dive deserves to become a statistic. You can't fix stupid. All we can hope for is to weed some of it out without endangering others.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

Did the fact that they may have saved a life cross your mind? I can't see the Op being at fault here. OK...you did not get what you wanted. The down side is very bleak. Check out the stats on divers who did not make it back home. When the boat says do this...do it. They are protecting you.

You can always rent a boat and do it yourself. But then there ...in my opinion, is a real horror story waiting to be written.

What gear were you diving with, and what would you have done if a 2-3 knot current blew you off the wreck at depth? Please post how you would have managed to meet your boat without rescue and or a ride in the chamber.

It happens all the time so your response will be helpful.

 

[mario_speedwagon]

We just got back from diving the Marathon and Key Largo (we were supposed to be diving in Roatan), we had read that Key Largo was the dive capital of the world and we now know why. It is by far some of the best diving we've ever done, the size and amount of sealife is incredible. We dived with Hall's in Marathon, and Ocean Divers in Key Largo and found both dive op's both knowledgeable and professional and they all had good things to say about all other dive op's in the Keys. We dove the Spectre (Marathon) and the Duane (Key Largo) and even though conditions were excellent, I could easily see how fast the conditions can change. Before our dives we were given long safety briefings and both dives went without any problems; but these are very advanced dives and they made sure we had computers before they let us into the water. All I can say is Florida ROCKS......

 

[RonFrank]

now it's the original posters fault because he didn't come to SB to find out what the real scoop was on a particular place????


never mind that the Dive Ops' website is a bit vague as already mentioned.

Is the onus on SB to set the record straight and clarify the Dive Ops policy or is it theirs?

One thing that Rescue diving teaches is a site plan, but OW teaches (or mine did) pre dive planning including talking to locals about the site, hiring a guide if needed, knowing the tides, currents, conditions if possible.

If I were booking 12 folks on a trip to the keys for several days, I'd make DAMN sure I knew what was required to dive each site, and that the divers I was booking were qualified to do the dives.

Let's exaggerate this a bit. What if you were planning on hiring a boat to do a 250' deco dive on some deep wrecks? Would you assume that the boat was just going to be able to handle this, and open the trip up to any certified diver?

Well, dead is dead, and a site know for ripping current with the sand at 130'+ may not be a deep deco dive, but one can easily go into deco. The Grove is hardly for the casual vacation diver whom has not dove for several years. Unfortunately it seems to be a badge for some, and everyone that goes down to the keys wants to dive...."The Grove".

 

[waseige1]

This operator of dive trips in the keys is the most customer non-friendly dive boat we have encoutered in the keys. We carried a group of twelve divers to their location with reservations to dive the Spiegel Grove, Duane and reef dives over two days. After we had signed-in and paid our money they then tried to say they would not take us to the Grove because two of the twelve only had an open-water dive card. This was never discussed prior to our arrival, not mentioned on their website, or brought to the attention of the three instructors on the boat until we were ready to depart. We demanded they fulfill what we had purchased and they relented and took us to the Spiegel Grove. We were met with good conditions, light current, fifty feet of visibility and a light surface chop. One diver did have to return to the back of the boat for more weight, but the entire group made the dive with no incidents. At this junction we mentioned that we were satisfied to stay and dive the grove again. The captain pulled the mooring and sped away saying their were some divers that had trouble and he was taking us to a shallow reef. After a short trip we dove French reef where he limited the amount of time we could stay in the water and then proceeded back to the dock. Our group was met by one of the owners who proceeded to yell that he needed a pow wow. He informed the group that he would not take us to the Duane as promised, because of safety reasons, and he wasn't even on the boat!. They finally relented to take the same group, the ones that weren't able to make dive two on the grove, back to the grove on Sunday for an am dive. What a bunch of a holes. I WILL NEVER TAKE A GROUP TO THIS OPERATOR AGAIN. THE OWNER SMELLED OF ALCOHOL DURING HIS RANT ON SAFETY, THEY WERE JUST WANTING TO FINISH THEIR DAY EARLY AND GET RID OF US.

From the helm that weekend.

I am Captain Steve the captain and master of the vessel of both trips for this group. This is my first ever post on this site but since my decisions and motives seem to be in questions; I feel the need to respond to what I saw that weekend. Please note that this response is in no way from Island Ventures. The opinions and observations are mine alone as an independent contractor.

In the original post, the group leader said they had two open water divers. This does not match the information I was given. Four of the twelve checked in with open water cards per the manifest I was given. This does not include a fifth diver who had not been in the water since 2005.

The group leader was correct that the first day of diving had favorable conditions. If it had not, I would not have agreed to take the group to the Spiegel Grove the first day, especially the diver who had not been in the water since 2005. In my professional opinion, the supervision of the group by their instructors was poor on the first day. I was assured by the owners of Island Venture and the group leader that these five divers would be directly supervised. They were not. Only two of the five on the first day did I see descend and ascend with an instructor.

The diver that had problems with his weight system and was abandoned on the surface at the beginning of the dive, was the diver which had not been diving since 2005. He did not return to the end of the boat for weights, and if an instructor had been with him, they would have known that. His weight belt came lose and there was no buddy or instructor to assist. This type of situation is frightening for the crew as all too often; simple problems turn large when a diver’s skills are not current. To the diver’s credit, he did a good job of recovering. The larger problem I had was not with the diver, but where was his direct supervision? What if a larger problem had occurred?

The leader of the group was correct in his assessment that there was no discussion before I left the Spiegel Grove. Discussion was irrelevant at that point. I had made the decision we were moving to a simpler dive for safety reasons. I had also told him that a second dive on the Spiegel was not a given, that I would move if I saw issues. I did. When an incident does happen on a boat, the Coast Guard comes to the captain for answers, not the group leader. As for my decision being more of a time concern than a safety concern, this is just wrong. If time was my priority, I would not have agreed to do a three stop trip on the second day. The group was given the standard one hour and five minutes at the second dive site on the first day.

The second day went no better despite being given the group leaders assurance that he would talk with the instructors about staying with the Open Water divers. They did not. On the second day, 3 of the 12 divers aborted due to current. All three of the instructors did the dive. I however found it interesting that the group leader asked me if we were going to do our second dive on the Spiegel Grove, on the second day, despite the fact that one fourth of his divers had deemed the conditions too difficult. I saw more concern for his vacation than for his group.

As a PADI professional, I find it confusing why other PADI professionals and divers need to be reminded that an open water diver is certified to 60 feet. Do all dive operators need to post all the standards? This is not practical. Are not these standards there to help us all? Don’t they help us insure we are self regulating and don’t need government oversight?

As a professional captain, I ask all divers to know that safety is by far our biggest concern. I will sacrifice a tip, a customer’s future business, my job at a local dive shop and to some extent my good name to keep divers safe. Please remember that we don’t know you when you get on the boat. All we have to judge you by is your c-card, your last dive date, what little we can observe as you set up your gear and by a few questions we may ask you. That is it. Even if our judgments seem unfair or unreasonable, we have our reasons. Most of us have seen thousands of dives despite the dives we do ourselves. We know how it is supposed to look. When it does not look or feel right, all too often our instincts are right.

I have the HIGHEST regard for Island Ventures, the owners, their policies, their fairness, the way they treat their customers, etc. etc. etc. If I did not, I would not drive their boats. Period. We make pennies for the responsibilities we carry as captains. It simply is not worth my peace of mind to watch an accident or setup a dive where one is more likely.

The question regarding Open Water versus Advanced Open Water for deep dives is surely a valid one. I myself have decided to error on the side of requiring AOW on my trips as an independent contractor. At least I know someone has talked to them about faster air consumption at depth. At least I know someone has talked to them about narcosis. At least I know someone had discussed with them the risks of deeper dives. Does this guarantee a better diver? No. Does it show me that a diver takes his or her sport more seriously? Absolutely.

Captain Steve
50 ton USCG Masters Captain
PADI Divemaster 194001

 

[John_B]

You can always rent a boat and do it yourself.

Speaking as someone who is particularly enamored with the reefs off Key Largo, unless someone has great navigational skills and is familiar with the shallow reefs there, please don't "rent a boat and do it yourself". :no The occasional groundings of commercial boats (i.e. cruise ships, cargo vessels, etc.) are bad enough.

The Grove is hardly for the casual vacation diver whom has not dove for several years. Unfortunately it seems to be a badge for some, and everyone that goes down to the keys wants to dive...."The Grove".

Uh, that probably has a lot to do with how it is being marketed. :shrug:

John

 

[Ed Jackson1]

I'm not familiar with this dive charter or the details of this incident, but I have never experienced good customer service in the Keys.

 

[herman]

Amen Steve.

Kathy and myself are looking forward to being back on the boat with you.

 

[frogman_5]

Steve, I agree with you 100%! As a boat owner and amateur "bus driver" I also worry about the divers I take out and their skill level. Aside from my regular "crew", I have to be discriminating on who is allowed on the boat and where I take them. There's been one or two who will not be invited back, but you can do that when it's your boat!

 

[almitywife]

thanks Captain Steve.... i appreciate you taking the time and giving your thoughts

im a woman married to a instructor and i understand how screwed you would be if something goes wrong and how the signed waiver will mean nothing once the **** hits the fan

cheers