Is "slave labor" a rite of passage for DM candidate?

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If you have paid a customary fee for the DM instruction and are expected to do various tasks, politely ask for the phone number for the Wage and Hour Division of the Dept of Labor.

If you paid a customary fee for the DM instruction, without confirming what tasks you will be expected to do and whether you agree with them... please don't ask for the phone number for MENSA.

There's a thousand examples of where someone might be expected to do a task, but not receive financial compensation for it... or for it to be classed as employment. Everything from Girl Scouts selling cookies to your significant other cooking your dinner.

People generally understand the concept of an 'internship'.

Those that don't... can only blame themselves for entering into one without understanding what it is...


Definition:Internships provide real world experience to those looking to explore or gain the relevant knowledge and skills required to enter into a particular career field. Internships are relatively short term in nature with the primary focus on getting some on the job training and taking what’s learned in the classroom and applying it to the real world. Interns generally have a supervisor who assigns specific tasks and evaluates the interns overall work. Internships are a method for people interested in trying out a new career. People do internships to gain relevant experience in a particular career field as well as to get exposure to determine if they have a genuine interest in the field. Internships are an excellent way to begin building those all important connections that are invaluable in developing and maintaining a strong professional network for the future.

Playing devil's advocate here - but if DM employment in that area/region does includes dive shop menial labor; then an internship is justified in exposing the candidate to those tasks, in order to give them an ability to assess and decide their interest in later pursuing employment in that role/career.

In that respect...based on regional 'norms'... if a salaried DM would do it, then a DM candidate should do it too. If, however, such tasks would otherwise be designated to staff other than DMs (cleaners etc), then it is not appropriate for the DM candidate to be exposed to that task.

In addition, there is a big difference between 'being exposed to' a task and 'being expected to fulfill a task'. Trying something out, for a limited basis, in the spirit of learning is acceptable. Being responsible for fulfilling an otherwise permanent function, in lieu of salaried staff, is not.

The long-and-short of it.... if a DM candidate felt disgruntled about being asked to clean a toilet... and such tasks were nominally expected of a salaried DM... then that candidate learnt a valuable lesson from their internship in respect of their understanding of the role and awareness of their motivation to be employed as such.
 
If you paid a customary fee for the DM instruction, without confirming what tasks you will be expected to do and whether you agree with them... please don't ask for the phone number for MENSA.

There's a thousand examples of where someone might be expected to do a task, but not receive financial compensation for it... or for it to be classed as employment. Everything from Girl Scouts selling cookies to your significant other cooking your dinner.

People generally understand the concept of an 'internship'.

Those that don't... can only blame themselves for entering into one without understanding what it is...


Definition:Internships provide real world experience to those looking to explore or gain the relevant knowledge and skills required to enter into a particular career field. Internships are relatively short term in nature with the primary focus on getting some on the job training and taking what’s learned in the classroom and applying it to the real world. Interns generally have a supervisor who assigns specific tasks and evaluates the interns overall work. Internships are a method for people interested in trying out a new career. People do internships to gain relevant experience in a particular career field as well as to get exposure to determine if they have a genuine interest in the field. Internships are an excellent way to begin building those all important connections that are invaluable in developing and maintaining a strong professional network for the future.

Playing devil's advocate here - but if DM employment in that area/region does includes dive shop menial labor; then an internship is justified in exposing the candidate to those tasks, in order to give them an ability to assess and decide their interest in later pursuing employment in that role/career.

In that respect...based on regional 'norms'... if a salaried DM would do it, then a DM candidate should do it too. If, however, such tasks would otherwise be designated to staff other than DMs (cleaners etc), then it is not appropriate for the DM candidate to be exposed to that task.

In addition, there is a big difference between 'being exposed to' a task and 'being expected to fulfill a task'. Trying something out, for a limited basis, in the spirit of learning is acceptable. Being responsible for fulfilling an otherwise permanent function, in lieu of salaried staff, is not.

The long-and-short of it.... if a DM candidate felt disgruntled about being asked to clean a toilet... and such tasks were nominally expected of a salaried DM... then that candidate learnt a valuable lesson from their internship in respect of their understanding of the role and awareness of their motivation to be employed as such.

How many "internships" REQUIRE that the intern PAY for the experience?
 
I gotta go with DD here, although I don't always do that. DM is a CERT. Many turn it into a lifestyle, but that doesn't sound like what the OP wants. The OP sounds like he wants a card. Many folks pursuing the DM CERT don't really want to pony up a grand just for a cert card, so they volunteer as slave labor around the shop to help pay off the cost of the card. Shop owners get used to having the cheap labor around and come to assume that if all of these other DMC's will clean potties and haul trash, than every DMC should. The OP isn't in Asia, he doesn't have to sell himself on the street corner at night. He just wants to learn some physics and physiology, run through some skill evaluations, perform a rescue, maybe help teach a OW class or module. Kinda like the standards require, I don't see anywhere in the standards where the DMC has to prostitute himself to a shop owner.
 
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Is "slave labor" a rite of passage for a (paying) DM candidate intern? I am well aware that the DM course involves hard work, and I am more than ready to work my bum off to get as much experience as possible. Let me clarify. What I am talking about here is, I have seen and heard of a lot of DM candidates spending much of their days loading tanks, rinsing suits, and even doing menial tasks that have nothing to do with diving, such as mopping floors and cleaning toilets. The worst I saw at one dive shop that I spent some time at, the crew spoke disrespectfully to the DM candidate and made comments and jokes that implied that he was their "slave". He only got to go diving every other day, and on the opposite days he was cleaning rooms in the accommodation at the dive shop! And yes, he was a paying customer! ...

So please dive professionals out there, I need your advice...are my expectations unreasonable? What really can I expect from a DM internship? And if this is not normal then what is the best way for me to discern which schools have this philosophy?

Is "slave labor" a rite of passage for DM candidate?
IMO…no, no one should have to endure this treatment for any level of instruction or internship. But the reality is we are dealing with human beings, each with their own life experiences, beliefs and values. What is right and wrong to me can be perfectly excitable to others. I personally place a very high value on treating others with the utmost dignity and respect. And I “choose” to associate with others that hold the same “level” of value. But what I would consider various behaviors not being dignified and respectful behaviors, others could. So again it comes back to my choices.

I am going to take some time off from work next month and in that time I will be undertaking the PADI Divemaster course. I have done my researched, asked for recommendation here on Scubaboard and elsewhere, contacted the various schools and will do my on-site visit prior to the start of the course from whom I have decided to use. Right now I feel very comfortable with my selection based on my personal values, beliefs and goals. I feel that I am too old to be playing stupid head games and boasting who has the biggest “flippers”. Just like diving itself, ultimately, my education and training are my responsibilities. I plan to get the most out of my training that I can. Now if I am asked to help mop the floors or clean the restrooms…in the true nature of a team environment…than I have no issues with that. If I am asked to do the same just because someone thinks lesser of me for being a DMC; I am not having any of it.


I think that testament to the numerous fine postings on this thread there are quite a few instructors and schools that place a high value on their students’ quality of training, many who use the DMC interns in various tasks, yet still treat the DMC with dignity and respect. But ultimately it is the DMC that should take responsibility for what they learn and how they let themselves be treated.

That is my two cents worth…

~Michael~
 
How many "internships" REQUIRE that the intern PAY for the experience?

I'd hazard a guess at around the 75% mark. There's an awful lot of 'work for your cert' type internships around - but there's probably a strong regional skew to that.

The 'old' DM course used to have two distinct options; the 'course' and the 'internship'. The 'internship' option was typically run as a much more 'hands-on' learn the industry ropes type of affair... with students being fully integrated into the dive team and mucking-in with a wide range of tasks. That suited those who wanted to experience life/work as a DM. The 'course' was quicker... and more of a 'provided training' option. That suited those who wanted to gain skills and knowledge, without immersion (no pun intended) in the scuba industry. The new DM courses muddies that distinction somewhat...

As others have stated, it is the responsibility of the prospective student to ascertain what training... what style of training... is provided by a given dive center... and decide if that is the experience they want. If a prospective DM intends to persue employment post-qualification, then they will benefit from a more immersed and functional style of course. If they aren't interested in a career as a dive pro, then they're more likely to appreciate a clearly defined, close to the syllabus only, type of course.

If the student finds a subsequent advantage in the hunt for a DM job, because of their breadth of experience...gained working 'hands-on' in a dive center on an internship... then they'll consider the money spent on training a good investment.

I'll remind...there's nothing in the DM course about working on compressors, filling tanks, maintaining kit, retail sales, center management/administration or logistics. That's all extra stuff, and when provided, is given by the dive center as a bonus. If the dive center also adds some less pleasant tasks to the mix... then it could be considered a fair swap. Extra for extra. After all, if the dive center stuck to the base syllabus... the course would be quite threadbare and very unhelpful to anyone who wanted employment in the industry.

Personally, if a trainee DM does want an 'immersed in the team' style of course, then they shouldn't be picky about the tasks they are exposed to. It's lovely to be 'included' in the team... and very beneficial for the candidate... but that's a two-way exchange. You can't take all the good stuff that's extra.... and then whinge about the bad stuff.

All I know is... I wouldn't employ a DM who turned their nose up at some hard graft and didn't like to pitch-in with the rest of the staff with the dirty jobs.

If someone doesn't want to get their hands dirty, then they should opt for the limited 'course'... get treated as a customer, do some diving, get a plastic card. No chores, no extras, no wider scope of learning. Wham..bang..thank you ma'am...and out the door as a card-toting DM.

All I know is... I wouldn't employ a DM who had that limited breadth of real-life industry experience.

As a scuba industry employer, I do look for evidence of a hard-worker...and experience of the full scope of expected tasks. No, that doesn't include cleaning toilets. Yes, that does include the motivation to get stuck-in to whatever work needs doing. For a newly qualified DM... that evidence is going to be provided by their DM course instructor... a reference. I'll ask questions about their performance, motivation, team-work and willingness. Those questions won't be answered satisfactorily if the DM candidate concerned had swanned through their course on a pedestal, reminding everyone that they are a paying customer etc etc.

For employment, or training, I wouldn't ask a candidate or employee to perform any function that I wouldn't do myself. And yes, as a dive center manager I have sometimes cleaned toilets...and many other tasks that were 'below' my job description. I did so as a military officer before that.

I don't actually train DMs at the moment - my schedule is more orientated towards technical diving - but when I did/do, I don't demand or expect a candidate to do anything. I'll suggest tasks - the candidate is free to decline. I'll lead by example, the candidate is free to choose whether to follow. From that attitude, I'll have a gauge of the candidate when considering employment, or when writing references. If that candidate isn't concerned with such things, then they can just enjoy the diving course for what it is.
 
All I know is... I wouldn't employ a DM who had that limited breadth of real-life industry experience.

I agree with your sentiments 100%. You can tell the difference in an interview, but not by a card, at least the way they are issued nowadays.
 
The usual tank hauling, rinsing of gear, air logging, etc is to be expected, and I had a blast when I was doing my DM internship.. I dun care, as long as I get to dive every single day!!

But i think mopping floors, cleaning bathrooms is really pushing it....

Anyhows, enjoy yourself! I'm sure you gonna have a ball of a time.. I know i did!
 
There is a problem in the dive industry that interns are expected to pay to work rather than to be paid at a lower rate to learn while they work (as happens in just about every other industry that uses an internship model).

But the problem of low pay, poor conditions and lack of appreciation for good people in the dive industry is largely also a problem of our own making, and the reality is that the DM candidate is going to be pretty close to the last person that this reality gets fixed for. When instructors with 10 years experience and exemplary work habits start making livable wages, then maybe, maybe the interns will have a shot at being treated well.

Don't expect that to be anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong, I love being an instructor. I just have my eyes open about the conditions of the workplace for instructors, and it's not always pretty. There are some great shops out there that treat their people right, I'm lucky enough to work with one. But they are few and far between.

All that said, when I was a DM candidate and a DM I volunteered to every task, class, and chore I could find. Doing so got me experience and made me more valuable, gained respect from instructors, and opened many doors for myself.
 
The usual tank hauling, rinsing of gear, air logging, etc is to be expected, and I had a blast when I was doing my DM internship.. I dun care, as long as I get to dive every single day!!

But i think mopping floors, cleaning bathrooms is really pushing it....

As I said... if those are the duties of salaried DMs at the center... and you are doing an 'immersion' course as part of the team, then you should expect to be working alongside the staff in all elements of their duties.

If the DMs at the center don't do those duties, then it isn't fair to be asked to do them - unless you're on a 'work-for-cert' freebie program where such duties may be considered 'payment in kind' for your training/certification.

If you're not on an 'immersion' type program... and just want to do the minimum course prerequisites for certification, then pay your money, do your modules and enjoy the plastic card you get at the end. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
As I said... if those are the duties of salaried DMs at the center... and you are doing an 'immersion' course as part of the team, then you should expect to be working alongside the staff in all elements of their duties.

If the DMs at the center don't do those duties, then it isn't fair to be asked to do them - unless you're on a 'work-for-cert' freebie program where such duties may be considered 'payment in kind' for your training/certification.

If you're not on an 'immersion' type program... and just want to do the minimum course prerequisites for certification, then pay your money, do your modules and enjoy the plastic card you get at the end. Nothing more, nothing less.

This might be why the OP got weird reactions when he was asking shops about "slave labor". If those menial tasks are normally done by salaried instructors and DMs, then it's not slave labor, it's part of the job. If it's not part of the job there, and the shop is good they might be offended about being asked if they make interns do jobs that they pay specific non-dive staff to do. If it's not part of the job and they aren't a good shop, then they might pretend to be offended by the question to put you at ease so they can later ask you to clean toilets.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's part of the job that paid DMs and instructors do, then it has a place as part of the internship, otherwise the intern should not be doing those tasks (unless, as you suggest it's agreed to in exchange for a lower course price). If it's part of their job, I'm fine with helping out with it, as long as I don't always end up with the crappy job (though if it were to happen, I doubt I'd be able to complain).

Perhaps the OP, and anybody else for that matter, should find out what tasks the DM job entails at the location he's considering and if he doesn't like some of those tasks, look elsewhere.
 
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