OP
Yeah, I've had no issues helping out on any boat with my sidemount kit on. Clip, clip and I'm in and overboard.
Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...
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I'm very surprised by the figures you claim Michael, seeing I couldn't find any remotely decent sidemount instructor when I was living in Sydney... And I've met maybe 4 sidemount divers in a year.
I used to take a tiny bit more time than my buddy (maybe 3 minutes), reasons were:
- He was first on the drysuit mat (it was his...)
- His regs were setup at his house, while I had to do that on site.
OTOH, I'm not in a rush when I go diving... and take less room on the boat than the divers with their jackets (they'd also typically slow me down, by placing their huge bcds in front of my tank, making me unable to get to it to even attach my regs...)
I used to take a tiny bit more time than my buddy (maybe 3 minutes), reasons were:
- He was first on the drysuit mat (it was his...)
- His regs were setup at his house, while I had to do that on site.
OTOH, I'm not in a rush when I go diving... and take less room on the boat than the divers with their jackets (they'd also typically slow me down, by placing their huge bcds in front of my tank, making me unable to get to it to even attach my regs...)
That is what I was saying too.
Never met a SM-boat diver who could even guess the problem, all think they are faster and more organized than anyone else on the boats they know.
All decry the steep learning curve, but non understand any problem after a couple of dives practice.
Never met a SM-boat diver who could even guess the problem, all think they are faster and more organized than anyone else on the boats they know.
All decry the steep learning curve, but non understand any problem after a couple of dives practice.
I've been reading this thread because of my curiosity about SM. I did not wade through every post, but read a great many.
My observations:
We tend to be fans of what we know, some of us become
preachers of whatever Gospel we have most recently adopted, while others attack anything new, or anything they see as a challenge to the superiority of their own favorite Gospel.
Like so many discussions on diving and dive gear I've waded through a great deal of posturing, bragging, machismo, trolling, and needless quibbling over minor differences, to get this far.
My interest in joining dive related discussions on gear and technique, is in listening, learning, and improving my own diving, and it seems to me that SM, just like BM, long hose, CCR, all have something to offer. All have strengths, and all have limits.
All have fans, and all have detractors, but all have more in common with each other than some in the midst of these arguements seem to realize.
We are ALL more alike, nearly identicle twins twins, when you compare us as a group with the vast majority of humanity who will never dive.
Reading this thread has reminded me of every angry debate over what gear, style or technique is superior, going all the way back to the arguments when i was 17 between the double hose die hards, and the divers like myself, choosing new fangled single hose.
My observations:
We tend to be fans of what we know, some of us become
preachers of whatever Gospel we have most recently adopted, while others attack anything new, or anything they see as a challenge to the superiority of their own favorite Gospel.Like so many discussions on diving and dive gear I've waded through a great deal of posturing, bragging, machismo, trolling, and needless quibbling over minor differences, to get this far.
My interest in joining dive related discussions on gear and technique, is in listening, learning, and improving my own diving, and it seems to me that SM, just like BM, long hose, CCR, all have something to offer. All have strengths, and all have limits.
All have fans, and all have detractors, but all have more in common with each other than some in the midst of these arguements seem to realize.
We are ALL more alike, nearly identicle twins twins, when you compare us as a group with the vast majority of humanity who will never dive.
Reading this thread has reminded me of every angry debate over what gear, style or technique is superior, going all the way back to the arguments when i was 17 between the double hose die hards, and the divers like myself, choosing new fangled single hose.
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It gets back to appropriate application. In clownfishsydney's situation, I'd opt to dive single-tank backmount due to the boat configuration and dive profile ... sidemount simply wouldn't offer any reasonable advantage, and I can see the drawbacks.
On the other hand, people tend to look at what they're familiar with and generalize ... and that usually just obfuscates the conversation. On my recent trip to BC we had 12 divers on the boat. One of them was in sidemount, and one was on a CCR. The rest of us were single-tank backmount divers. We were doing single dives, then heading back in to the lodge for SI before the next dive. Without exception, the sidemount diver was the first one geared up and in the water. And without exception, the CCR guy was the last one out. This was the result of the inherent advantages offered by the dive boat layout and the experience of the divers involved. We were all experienced, and skilled divers ... but the configuration, under the circumstances of dive boat and profile, provided benefits that outweighed the drawbacks.
If we were in a RIB, Whaler, or clownfishsydney's boat, I think the benefits/drawbacks equation wouldn't have come out the same way ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
On the other hand, people tend to look at what they're familiar with and generalize ... and that usually just obfuscates the conversation. On my recent trip to BC we had 12 divers on the boat. One of them was in sidemount, and one was on a CCR. The rest of us were single-tank backmount divers. We were doing single dives, then heading back in to the lodge for SI before the next dive. Without exception, the sidemount diver was the first one geared up and in the water. And without exception, the CCR guy was the last one out. This was the result of the inherent advantages offered by the dive boat layout and the experience of the divers involved. We were all experienced, and skilled divers ... but the configuration, under the circumstances of dive boat and profile, provided benefits that outweighed the drawbacks.
If we were in a RIB, Whaler, or clownfishsydney's boat, I think the benefits/drawbacks equation wouldn't have come out the same way ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Mike, Thanks for the detail explanation.
Three thoughts:
1. It sounds like you are doing a dive recreational trips, using a smaller boat. But, you have had some SM divers bring two cylinders on board for what is in essence a 'one tank' dive. There is no particular reason for an experienced SM diver to bring two cylinders on board. Now, one thing i have observed over time is that many open water SM divers are trained primarily in a two-cylinder configuration. Although single cylinder SM (monkey diving) is a skill included in many non-technical SM courses, it is often only given lip service. And, during and after initial training, divers fine tune their rigs (weighting, weight distribution, etc) using two cylinders, so that ends up being what they are most comfortable with, if not the only approach they know.
2. You do seem to have encountered an odd subset of SM divers. For me, single cylinder SM is frankly quicker to set up than single cylinder BM.
I suspect that if you work with experienced SM divers, who know you are doing a one cylinder dive, you will find that they are actually more organized than many BM divers. That is one of the appealing features of SM. It is quite quick and easy. I grab my cylinder and clip it on, turn it on and hop in. I adjust bungees, etc after I enter the water.
3. Whether to dive single cylinders in a BM or SM configuration is a matter of personal preference, not whether SM is 'needed' or 'not needed'. For most of the boat dives I do in the US, the standard approach is to carry your cylinders down to the dock, and put them aboard the boat, in the cylinder racks provided. The scuba unit is assembled on the way to the site, then broken down and stowed on the way back from the site, after the diving. In that case, I find BM to be more cumbersome than SM. In both cases I am carrying the cylinder to and from the boat, so there is no advantage of BM on shore. In the water, well again, it a matter of preference. In situations where there is a considerable distance to walk to get to the dock, a BM rig may have a very slight advantage, as you are essentially carrying a (heavy) pack on your back, with your hands free.
As for the issue of 'drag' raised earlier, I have to believe that there is less drag associated with a well-positioned, streamlined SM single cylinder than a BM single cylinder. Certainly, no more. But, for recreational diving, drag is not a huge issue anyway.
Three thoughts:
1. It sounds like you are doing a dive recreational trips, using a smaller boat. But, you have had some SM divers bring two cylinders on board for what is in essence a 'one tank' dive. There is no particular reason for an experienced SM diver to bring two cylinders on board. Now, one thing i have observed over time is that many open water SM divers are trained primarily in a two-cylinder configuration. Although single cylinder SM (monkey diving) is a skill included in many non-technical SM courses, it is often only given lip service. And, during and after initial training, divers fine tune their rigs (weighting, weight distribution, etc) using two cylinders, so that ends up being what they are most comfortable with, if not the only approach they know.
That's where I disagree, and where there seems to be an unfortunate misperception, and misunderstanding. I fully agree with the one tank. But, the 'therefore' is a problem. 'SIDEMOUNT' does NOT equal '2 CYLINDERS'. In fairness, 10 years ago I might not have made the same statement. I came to SM from a BM doubles environment. When I started SM, I only knew two cylinders, I praised it as a stable platform (like a pontoon boat) in part because of the two-cylinder configuration, and I infrequently dove SM with a single cylinder. I might have tried to come aboard your boat with two cylinders - because that is really all I knew - when everyone else was using a single, and you would have included me in your list of 'problem children'. That was then, this is now. The issue you are dealing with does NOT seem to be the sidemount configuration, it is the decision to bring two cylinders on board for a one cylinder dive. And, I am frankly surprised than 'experienced', 1000-dive sidemounters would do such a thing.The same issue would arise if a diver brought double HP100s on the boat, to do a single cylinder dive. They would take up more space, would require a bit of extra time to set up (the second reg), etc. An experienced SM diver is equally comfortable and facile 'monkey diving'.clownfishsydney:
2. You do seem to have encountered an odd subset of SM divers. For me, single cylinder SM is frankly quicker to set up than single cylinder BM.
I might not completely agree with the statement, but I definitely understand what you are getting at. It is a matter of someone bringing two cylinders on board when they don't need to, not whether they are diving a SM configuration or a BM configuration. I am pretty comfortable saying that I can usually get in the water quicker in a single SM rig than most boat divers I see using single cylinder BM. It is simply a matter of setting the cylinder up before even getting on the boat. In fact, as I mentioned, for short trips to the site, I usually just wear my SM BCD, although I could easily hang it on my cylinder and take up no more room than any BM single cylinder rig. My cylinder is rigged before I get on the boat (cam straps in place, pig-tail bolt snaps in place), the regulator is in place (and I have already added a second / alternate air source if I know I am monkey diving - I don't wait to do that until after I am on the boat).clownfishsydney:
I suspect that if you work with experienced SM divers, who know you are doing a one cylinder dive, you will find that they are actually more organized than many BM divers. That is one of the appealing features of SM. It is quite quick and easy. I grab my cylinder and clip it on, turn it on and hop in. I adjust bungees, etc after I enter the water.
3. Whether to dive single cylinders in a BM or SM configuration is a matter of personal preference, not whether SM is 'needed' or 'not needed'. For most of the boat dives I do in the US, the standard approach is to carry your cylinders down to the dock, and put them aboard the boat, in the cylinder racks provided. The scuba unit is assembled on the way to the site, then broken down and stowed on the way back from the site, after the diving. In that case, I find BM to be more cumbersome than SM. In both cases I am carrying the cylinder to and from the boat, so there is no advantage of BM on shore. In the water, well again, it a matter of preference. In situations where there is a considerable distance to walk to get to the dock, a BM rig may have a very slight advantage, as you are essentially carrying a (heavy) pack on your back, with your hands free.
As for the issue of 'drag' raised earlier, I have to believe that there is less drag associated with a well-positioned, streamlined SM single cylinder than a BM single cylinder. Certainly, no more. But, for recreational diving, drag is not a huge issue anyway.
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BDSC
Contributor
I've seen several posts now that seem to indicate that SM divers can gear up and get in the water quicker than the BM diver. I'm not saying it's not possible, but if you are comparing divers of equal skill and one has to gear up in a BM vs SM, my money is on the BM diver every time.
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It depends on whether or not the SM diver is already wearing his rig ... which is one of the advantages of a lot of SM rigs, they're reasonably comfortable to wear in advance of getting to the dive site. In that case, all you have to do is clip your tanks, pop on the BCD inflator, put on your fins and go. Takes less than a minute.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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