Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

[Razorista]

...
In relation to their principles, here is their sidemount solution:

Horrible isn't it?
I am sorry, but UTD forgot about DIR and especially KISS constructing that.
It's great to be the one selling something like that, nothing else.

 

[decompression]

....nobody's perfect......(white flag).

 

[Razorista]

What happend @decompression?
Did you change your opinion or have you just given up arguing?

I have to admit, the only problem I always had with the UTD system was, that I never met someone owning one not fanatically convinced of it's perfection.
You just changed that impression, even if I misunderstood. Thank you

 

[DevonDiver]

I have reservations about the UTD Z-system. I've also dived with,and taught courses to, people using the system. However, if that's what someone has chosen to dive with... and that's what they've been trained with.... then it's ok by me for my courses. I've yet to see one present a dangerous situation. If I did, then my policy for training might change.

The worst I've seen with the Z-System was a failure pre-dive. Sadly, the system was incompatible with any spares or repairs we could effect on the boat... and the student missed the dive. Downer for him...

Thus far, I've never seen anyone fanatical about it in real life.... although there are a few staunch defenders here on SB. Even then, most of them are merely staunch in defending their perspectives against critique... and not actively criticizing others' choices. I don't think I've ever seen a UTD sidemount / z-system diver ever trying hard to 'recruit' other sidemount divers to their cause. No behavior like the thread question alludes to...

 

[decompression]

I hope I've never come across as fanatical about anything, I like to think that, like most, I prefer to take a long look at things, rate their merit and make my diving decisions that way.

I'm well aware that I'm one of the most active UTD instructors on SB, and I've consciously tried not to "push" the manifesto but offer opinions and suggestions where I have first hand knowledge (gear, policies, etc) of what is still really a pretty small operation (only 3 employees when I first got involved).

So, yes, the Z system, the albatross.......I'm a bit tired of debating, mainly as those that will debate the system have already made up their mind so I don't so much debate as try to correct miss info. It has its place, just like any other piece of gear. But I will always offer honest and genuine opinions, if anyone that has never seen, touched or dove with it.

 

[Razorista]

It's sad to get tired of debating a system.

In the case of the UTD system I am personally biased.
In my opinion they started the trend of not cooperating and improving and instead badly copying the Razor system.
We seem stuck in progress (regarding Razor style harnesses) until HP releases the next idea from Mexico.
(Have you seen his new 'Razor drysuit' by the way? ingenious )

But to tell you the truth it was always very interessting to me, simply because it is different.
I see it as having a special purpose since you cannot be part of a UTD team without using one.

Do you need it anywhere else? That might be debatable.

Is is 'bad' anywhere else?
Certainly not.
One has to admit that badly used it is about as self-reliant as a single first stage single bottle system.
I honestly expect, however, that I will meet a lot more backmount mono-bottle divers than badly trained UTD divers in my life.

 

[decompression]

It's sad to get tired of debating a system.

In the case of the UTD system I am personally biased.
In my opinion they started the trend of not cooperating and improving and instead badly copying the Razor system.
We seem stuck in progress (regarding Razor style harnesses) until HP releases the next idea from Mexico.
(Have you seen his new 'Razor drysuit' by the way? ingenious )

But to tell you the truth it was always very interessting to me, simply because it is different.
I see it as having a special purpose since you cannot be part of a UTD team without using one.

Do you need it anywhere else? That might be debatable.

Is is 'bad' anywhere else?
Certainly not.
One has to admit that badly used it is about as self-reliant as a single first stage single bottle system.
I honestly expect, however, that I will meet a lot more backmount mono-bottle divers than badly trained UTD divers in my life.

So, here we go again....

If you look at about a dozen different SM rigs, they are fundamentally the same, only so many ways to efficiently design one. And as Andy posted recently there are only really 2 styles of SM rigs (excluding the sandwich). I think the "who was first" can be debated.

I would say that I've seen a constant development and improvement in all the products UTD carries. That is one area all of us instructors and divers have input with. The amount and variance of wings alone suggests this. I haven't see much recently from Steve but I am always anxious.

And another assumption about team diving, in practice you'll find many of us dive in all kinds of SM teams. Briefings can be longer than a true UTD team but most are pretty experienced divers. The real benefit is certainly mixed teams but lots of us do all kinds of diving.

And certainly, the training standard is high, a source of pride for myself, but the agency just makes it easier, any instructor could do the same.

 

[MSargeant]

Oh, and while we're at it. There is a German guy who started another 'DIR' agency that is supposed to be like GUE, it's called ISE. The head honcho was an instructor with GUE at some point (don't know what level though)... I don't know what happened. Word on the street is that he got booted too.
They also offer every course imaginable, CCR, pSCR, Cave, Sidemount... you name it.

If memory serves, Mr Schloeffel was the only German speaking Tech2 Instr. at the time when he left. Bluemed on here is an ISE instructor (Instructor Trainer?) along with Tom Steiner in Gozo. A few guys from a Belgian sidemount group I have some contact with have also moved moved over, they all look rock solid in the water .

RE the UTD rig, It intrigues me, I would love one to play with and I quite like the idea behind it.

 

[DevonDiver]

If you look at about a dozen different SM rigs, they are fundamentally the same, only so many ways to efficiently design one.

It's ironic that, on a thread essentially about over-zealous and entrenched attitudes, we have a poster that states all British/Mexico-cave style sidemounts are "badly copying the Razor system".

Even in the most heated moments of the great DIR debates, I don't remember zealots making such claims regarding wing design. I've never heard that all BP&W are "badly copying the Halcyon system" etc etc...

It's a great illustration to support earlier posts in the thread that highlighted the primary problem with zealots tends to stem from the less experienced who don't understand the wider scope of issues. If there are problems with sidemount, as with DIR, then it stems from those who possess 'a little knowledge'. A little knowledge can be a bad thing.

I'm still chuckling over the post that used the analogy of a guy getting laid for the first time and thinking they invented sex. Great analogy...

What's genuinely funny is that the UTD Z-Trim was actually a relatively novel design. It's a different shape to the Razor BAT wing (triangle versus diamond), it attaches to the harness differently to the Razor; secured on the side-waist, not bungeed. It added baffles (much needed by the Razor...).

The Z-Trim was much more copied by others than it stole from the Razor. The triangle shaped wing is prevalent in many British/Mexico school sidemount designs. Not many companies bothered with diamond shaped wings...

 

[Razorista]

What makes them copies is not the design similarities, as I said most are bad copies.

Most share the common history of someone meeting Steve Bogaerts and HP, getting cave training there during Razor 1 and Razor2 development, talking about business cooperation and then totally independently 'developing' their own sidemount system and sidemount training 3 weeks after going home.
Some are even a copy of a copy of the Razor, or have take additional inspiration from Nomad or Armadillo, but all share the roots in the UTD guys going to Mexico to steal the design.

Not very subtle, the way they did it.

The only reason the Z-System has a different wing is, that the Razor did not have a wing to copy at that time and every beginner can see the modded MSR-bag would not have worked as a product - especially not one costing in excess of $1500 as the full package.

And btw: unlicenced copying is the normal way of development in the diving industry everywhere.
Its nothing to wonder about or feel ashamed of, it's just the way it works.
That still makes copies copies however.