Is dive certification really necessary?

[boulderjohn]

I think I missed something in Coliam's post and with the other posts that tried to answer Eric's questions directly. Where did you get that conclusion? That's not what I wrote nor what I thought. I realize that the thread went down a rabbit trail, but?

When I read your post I thought: He's a little butt-hurt!

I am not trying to start anything, as I am just giving you my opinion.

As always, cheers,
m

I was not responding to Colliam's post as I was inspired by it. I am actually saying something of the same thing he did. This thread is indeed taking these two opposite positions.

I have pointed out similar paradoxes in ScubaBoard posts in the past. Here is another one you see often.

1. Everywhere you look you see incompetent divers. Nobody is any good. That is because instructors all suck at diving themselves.
2. If you want to improve your diving, stay away from these incompetent instructors and pick out a Mentor from the current divers you meet. It doesn't matter which one. All divers are pretty good. They will all be better than an instructor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I

1. We need to make the teacher certification and evaluation process much more rigorous so that only the best trained teachers are allowed to teach.

So having instructors who can perform and teach skills neutrally buoyant and trim is asking too much? You've been teaching that way far longer than I have. Is expecting that from new instructors asking too much?

 

[2airishuman]

it would seem that a lot of people get hurt going beyond their training, but few people get hurt in benign OW conditions due to inadequate training in their OW course.

Part of the broader purpose of the magazine is to sell classes by encouraging the mindset that it is the safest/best/only way to expand boundaries.

Is "going beyond their training" an example of inadequate training?

I think that it is a fair point that characterizing the primary OW training as having unrealistically narrow limits is one way to divert attention from other causation. But from reading accident reports, I do not believe this is common. Usually accidents characterized as people "going beyond their training" involve people making high-risk dives -- caves, deco, rebreather, wreck penetration -- not someone going to 101 feet without taking the deep specialty.

 

[boulderjohn]

So having instructors who can perform and teach skills neutrally buoyant and trim is asking too much? You've been teaching that way far longer than I have. Is expecting that from new instructors asking too much?

I'm not sure that I understand your question, since the line you quoted had nothing to do with scuba instruction.

But I will answer your question by pointing out the subtle paradox in this issue as well.

1. Brand new OW students taught while neutrally buoyant easily learn to do the basic skills that way. It isn't hard for them at all.
2. Scuba instructors need special training to be able to teach skills to OW students while neutrally buoyant. It's too hard for most of them.

As you know, I learned through experimentation how to teach that way. I had no one to show me how. As I experimented, other instructors in our program tried it, too. They had no trouble.

One holdout who insisted on doing skills on the knees, saying it was too difficult for students, got the task of taking the pictures that were used in the PADI article. He saw what that instruction looked like for the first time as he took pictures. We did not do any pictures of removing and replacing the scuba unit, and he was very surprised when I said my students did that exercise in mid water. I climbed out of the pool at the end of the session, and as I did, I saw him head to the deep end, where he tried the exercise himself. He had no trouble at all.

 

[Colliam7]

It brings us to the interesting consensus of this thread. People seem to have agreed on two points:

1. It is not necessary to have a certification process. Scuba skills are easy enough for people to pick up on their own without any help.
2. Scuba instruction is so uniformly poor that we should have independent verification of instructional quality and expensive monitoring of instructors in order to ensure that OW divers are properly instructed by highly skilled instructors on these vital skills.

And, I - for one - am pleased to demur from being part of that particular consensus, as I indicated in my post.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm not sure that I understand your question, since the line you quoted had nothing to do with scuba instruction.

But I will answer your question by pointing out the subtle paradox in this issue as well.

1. Brand new OW students taught while neutrally buoyant easily learn to do the basic skills that way. It isn't hard for them at all.
2. Scuba instructors need special training to be able to teach skills to OW students while neutrally buoyant. It's too hard for most of them.

As you know, I learned through experimentation how to teach that way. I had no one to show me how. As I experimented, other instructors in our program tried it, too. They had no trouble.

One holdout who insisted on doing skills on the knees, saying it was too difficult for students, got the task of taking the pictures that were used in the PADI article. He saw what that instruction looked like for the first time as he took pictures. We did not do any pictures of removing and replacing the scuba unit, and he was very surprised when I said my students did that exercise in mid water. I climbed out of the pool at the end of the session, and as I did, I saw him head to the deep end, where he tried the exercise himself. He had no trouble at all.

Ah, my bad. I glossed over the legislators part. Comment withdrawn.

 

[2airishuman]

Thinking about this thread, all of the instructors I've had, and that my kids have had, have been great, and have helped us on the journey. All of our classes were small, 1-4 students except one of the kids' pool sessions was a somewhat larger group.

I think that the various agencies do provide a valuable service as curators of the curriculum. While not perfect (Nitrox really should be rolled into OW or AOW, there should be more discussion of gas planning, pony cylinders and their risks should be covered) they are all good.

I do not think it is too much to ask for people interested in diving to find an instructor and take a class.

 

[apenland01]

I will join those who say, 'No'.

To address a suggestion made at the end of the OP, I see little / no value in an 'independent' certification process, because I don't believe that 'certification' is necessary to begin with. At the same time, the notion of 'mentors' is, to me, very positive. The notion of 'coaches' (I am not saying this to specifically praise UTD, by the way) is also very positive. We have gold coaches, tennis coaches, financial coaches, life coaches. Why not scuba coaches, for those that want coaching, and want to pay for it?

This is exactly what I was asking for in a post a few weeks back. However, I asked about private instructors and most all the responses said it would be impossible to find a private instructor due to liability. The term I should have used was "coach" or even "paid mentor". This concept would have a lot of value to people like me...

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is exactly what I was asking for in a post a few weeks back. However, I asked about private instructors and most all the responses said it would be impossible to find a private instructor due to liability. The term I should have used was "coach" or even "paid mentor". This concept would have a lot of value to people like me...

Clue me in here. What's the difference between private instructors and independent ones? I feel like I'm missing context.

 

[apenland01]

One on one instruction, coaching or whatever you want to call it diving in local lakes and conditions. I may have poorly worded my original question a few weeks ago, but a private "coach" would be ideal for what I'm looking for.