Is being able to swim mandatory for those taking up the Open Water courses?

[redacted]

Swimming is not mandatory for PADI. A 300m snorkel and 10mins floating on your back is enough for their Standards... however not mine.

If you deny a certification because of your added standards that go beyond PADI standards, do you provide a full refund of the course fees? And what, exactly, are your added standards?

 

[TMHeimer]

The exact reason for these tests are not difficult to understand. Before the advent of the buoyancy compensator, the diver would descend, become negatively buoyant with depth and have a need to kick like hell to get to the surface. They simply didn't have the option of pushing a button... Safety was dependent on the individual's in-water ability and fitness. The flotation vest was reserved for surface emergencies. The diver used his basic equipment (FMS) to propel himself from and back to the entry point. In an emergency, he had to depend upon his Buddy's ability to perform an assist/rescue on the surface or underwater. Training included rescue skills. The Diver had to be competent.

Since this time, the training requirements have been reduced as a result of the technology that's available. There is a dependence on equipment and its reliability. One thing that I do know is that in the history of man, everything man made has failed. It's simply a matter of time...

It comes down to one's training philosophy and the interpretation of degree of self-reliance that's reasonable for the diver to possess. It's my belief that it can largely depend upon the diving environment. The skill-sets required to dive in warm shallow water in otherwise idealistic conditions, is not the same as ice cold water, surf, waves, currents and poor visibility. The 'Standard' should reflect the diving conditions (which it not always does).



I think that not enough is made of a person's degree of in-water comfort/confidence. The 'comfort envelope' controls panic. Regardless of the situation, if you're comfortable you have the opportunity to deal with it. This is why training programs in the past included blackout drills, station breathing, harassment, etc. (mine still do) and why some instructors still teach Buddy Breathing. For me, it has less to do with the requirement to share one second stage than it does the increased level of communication, co-ordinated movement and increased confidence gained by the Students. Comfort in the water has a very real value. Putting a non-swimmer into deep water is just asking for trouble imo. Like I said, equipment can fail...

I agree with everything you say, and your explanation of why these requirements came to be makes sense. With the exception of that these divers from years ago had, as you say, the mask/fins/snorkel (fins in particular) to propel themselves to and fro. Using said equipment is not swimming. As well, except in odd circumstances, you don't use your arms while on scuba. You do swimming.

tech_diver: Agree. You can fall off a dock or boat before donning your fins.

 

[DCBC]

I agree with everything you say, and your explanation of why these requirements came to be makes sense. With the exception of that these divers from years ago had, as you say, the mask/fins/snorkel (fins in particular) to propel themselves to and fro. Using said equipment is not swimming. As well, except in odd circumstances, you don't use your arms while on scuba. You do swimming.

Yes, there is a level of unaided in-water ability that a person must demonstrate before learning 'other equipment aids.' The routine was for the student to learn 'Basic Equipment' before moving on to SCUBA (building confidence and their level of fitness). SCUBA included the added complexities of diver rescue/self-rescue, dive site preparation/dive planning, gas consumption/projection, etc., etc. Confidence and ability was increased modularly; until they could deal with anxiety and additional task loading, becoming a competent Diver/Buddy. They could then then dive unsupervised (without need of a Divemaster or Instructor). They were Certified Divers ready to build upon their experience. Many old Instructors (like Jim and I) continue to teach this way, but much has been lost to quick and easy certification...

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, there is a level of unaided in-water ability that a person must demonstrate before learning 'other equipment aids.' The routine was for the student to learn 'Basic Equipment' before moving on to SCUBA (building confidence and their level of fitness). SCUBA included the added complexities of diver rescue/self-rescue, dive site preparation/dive planning, gas consumption/projection, etc., etc. Confidence and ability was increased modularly; until they could deal with anxiety and additional task loading, becoming a competent Diver/Buddy. They could then then dive unsupervised (without need of a Divemaster or Instructor). They were Certified Divers ready to build upon their experience. Many old Instructors (like Jim and I) continue to teach this way, but much has been lost to quick and easy certification...

Yeah, I agree completely. I guess all I'm saying is what Jim said--Swimming is a life skill (whether you dive or not). If you lived in the middle of Iowa and never saw water your whole life you wouldn't need it. Most do. And you could fall off that dock into current without fins as well. I can't think of any other time you'd swim (finnless) on a dive day, but it just makes sense to know how to properly swim before taking scuba. We can get into the various views on the 200 meter test, how it should be administered, if or how it should be modified--good stroke?, any kind of forward motion is OK?, should it be longer?, shorter? But that discussion goes on forever.

 

[DCBC]

Yeah, I agree completely. I guess all I'm saying is what Jim said--Swimming is a life skill (whether you dive or not). If you lived in the middle of Iowa and never saw water your whole life you wouldn't need it. Most do. And you could fall off that dock into current without fins as well. I can't think of any other time you'd swim (finnless) on a dive day, but it just makes sense to know how to properly swim before taking scuba. We can get into the various views on the 200 meter test, how it should be administered, if or how it should be modified--good stroke?, any kind of forward motion is OK?, should it be longer?, shorter? But that discussion goes on forever.

I agree with what you're saying about swimming. Personally I don't care about style of stroke. If the person can propel themselves the 400 M it establishes that they have a degree of fitness (one aspect of the evaluation). The 25 M underwater swim demonstrates that they can move themselves underwater efficiently. These skills build confidence in the abilities of the student and in each other.

Training a diver for me is more than completing simple tasks with an hour of air on your back. I want to prepare a student for a worse case scenario. Having trained military and commercial divers, this is what's required. I suppose everyone can drown in very little water and I don't see if you're in that situation, what you do for a living has anything to do with it. You are either prepared or you're not.

 

[TMHeimer]

An underwater swim test (with fins?) would be a nice addition to the PADI requirements. I guess there's a bit of that with the skin diving portion of the course. Again, something you would THINK someone could do before taking a course.

 

[Progen]

... The 'comfort envelope' controls panic. Regardless of the situation, if you're comfortable you have the opportunity to deal with it. This is why training programs in the past included blackout drills, station breathing, harassment, etc. (mine still do) and why some instructors still teach Buddy Breathing. For me, it has less to do with the requirement to share one second stage than it does the increased level of communication, co-ordinated movement and increased confidence gained by the Students. Comfort in the water has a very real value. Putting a non-swimmer into deep water is just asking for trouble imo. Like I said, equipment can fail...

Very true! I used to practice going down to 4 metres to retrieve my entire kit and don it whilst swimming even before I'd gotten the Open Water certification. I did it confidently because I knew that if the equipment somehow failed, I could swim to the surface, take a few breaths before going down to check again instead of floating up and bobbing around for a while before drowning.

 

[261311]

if the equipment somehow failed, I could swim to the surface, take a few breaths before going down to check again instead of floating up and bobbing around for a while before drowning.

I'm all for the fitness and confidence but the practicality/ real world scenario of this happening, and also having to do this solo seems fairly low. Part to why I think it was abolished, short of task loading this has little real value. You rarely find yourself in 15 feet of water where you have an equipment failure, remove and drop everything randomly and have to surface and go back down. Not saying this isn't an impossible instance but the likelihood of this happening is near 1/1000+ and it would almost always be in deeper water with a buddy who could grab your random piece of gear you lost as well.

I do agree however, the more comfort and familiarity you have with the water, the better a position you'll be in to deal with everything calmly and efficiently.

 

[DCBC]

Very true! I used to practice going down to 4 metres to retrieve my entire kit and don it whilst swimming even before I'd gotten the Open Water certification. I did it confidently because I knew that if the equipment somehow failed, I could swim to the surface, take a few breaths before going down to check again instead of floating up and bobbing around for a while before drowning.

I still require a doff & don of 'basic equipment' before progressing to SCUBA. Students also do the same exercise on SCUBA (obviously easier with an hour's worth of air available). I remember when I was undergoing training as a Navy Diver, we had to do this in 100 FSW. You took-off your gear, turned on a strobe that was attached to the yoke (doubles), did a free ascent and went back down to find it and put it on. The visibility wasn't the greatest (especially without a mask) and it really scarred the *rap out of me. I kept wondering about the training value of this? It wasn't until later that I understood it was all about building confidence and still later before the training value hit me.

I appreciate that for most people Diving is all about going on vacation, breathing bubbles and looking at fish. The recreational Diving Agencies have tailored their programs to be quick, easy and fun. After-all it's the reason why Salesman, Mechanics and others take up SCUBA in the first-place. So it becomes a game of probabilities...

How much training does a person actually require to dive a few hours a year in good conditions? Clearly not much. It's the same position taken by some Agencies regarding swimming. Does a person need to be a swimmer to breathe air out of a SCUBA tank and kick? Obviously not much, or at all. What is equally clear to me is that the more prepared the Student is, the better the chance of survival when things go bump in the night. The risks are magnified by the diving conditions in-which the Diver subjects himself.

Sometimes I feel like a Sword-maker in feudal Japan. You're taught to make a Katana a certain way. Today however, it's all but a lost art. It's understandable that in today's Society of instant gratification, why things are what they are...

 

[Progen]

I'm all for the fitness and confidence but the practicality/ real world scenario of this happening, and also having to do this solo seems fairly low. Part to why I think it was abolished, short of task loading this has little real value. You rarely find yourself in 15 feet of water where you have an equipment failure, remove and drop everything randomly and have to surface and go back down. Not saying this isn't an impossible instance but the likelihood of this happening is near 1/1000+ and it would almost always be in deeper water with a buddy who could grab your random piece of gear you lost as well.

I do agree however, the more comfort and familiarity you have with the water, the better a position you'll be in to deal with everything calmly and efficiently.

Actually, it was more towards having something to do other than just swimming around in circles or practicing buoyancy control. Couldn't afford to spend too long underwater doing nothing or the swimmers above will start wondering whether you're an underwater pervert.