Is another problem with DAN brewing?

[fairybasslet]

Why? Have you heard of actual incidents where DAN refused to pay? Or is this based on the vague, one-sided assertions that started this whole thread?

Just based on my experience with other insurance companies.

 

[DPJ]

I did the search before I posted and don't believe what I posted was "old news" Old new which is quoted and linked refers to 3 SSS facilities that were not supporting DAN and 9 SSS facilities that continured (in January 06) to support DAN. It now appears that many of those 9 SSS facilities have withdrawn their support. I'm not sure why some people see this as SOS (same old stuff). I see this, if true, as a big step in the wrong direction that happened to surface as my renewal notice is getting to the top of my to-do list. Sure, it may well just be part of some underhanded corparate maneuvers to improve its position. I don't think I'm going to take that risk.

For many of those locations, there is more than one chamber, this only applies to SSS chambers in those areas. The company is making "Press Releases" hoping to get DAN to settle. Personally I find their tactics disgusting and would go out of my way to find other facilities, even if DAN covered it.

 

[String]

Well, there are some others, but if DAN allows these chambers to gouge, then others will. Once the chambers get control of DAN, they'll really hit the others. You want to fight or pay?

Or if these chambers allow DAN to not pay, pay late and so on they may do it more widespread.

Theres still nothing here to show one way or another whether its dan or the chamber operator to blame here. I cant fathom why everyone is immediately saying DAN is innocent in all this as theres nothing at all to back that up.

 

[Dave Zimmerly]

Just in:

http://www.underwatertimes.com/news2.php?article_id=07610425813

-Squirt

 

[tachyon]

Or if these chambers allow DAN to not pay, pay late and so on they may do it more widespread.

Theres still nothing here to show one way or another whether its dan or the chamber operator to blame here. I cant fathom why everyone is immediately saying DAN is innocent in all this as theres nothing at all to back that up.

I see this as being a rather simple issue. This chamber network has chosen to take a financial / business issue public. In the U.S. this could very well be illegal if any patient information is released, and for DAN to 'prove' they are in the right to skeptics would require that they release specific facts that they can't release under Federal law.

All of the chambers listed are members of one network, and since they think that DAN blinked in the prior confrontation with three of their chambers, the rest are going to try the same thing. I can find nothing indicating that other chambers are having the same problems with DAN, so until there is proof beyond a press release and people on the internet repeating the press release; DAN gets the benefit of the doubt from me and anything that SSS says is to be taken with a grain of salt.

One telling thing with the SSS press release is that they say they won't accept DAN insurance or DAN credit cards. If this means what it says, they won't honor your MBNA DAN MasterCard. That's just silly.

It's pretty obvious this isn't just a business deal gone wrong, it's a pissing contest that SSS started. DAN has been measured and has not replied with the same lack of class that SSS has demonstrated. Posting DAN's tax return and a nonprofit rating website that rates DAN poorly has what bearing on the actual disagreement? Ah, yes, spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt for you non-IS folk) and you'll force someone to do things your way! What SSS forgot is that the only successful practicioners of FUD are the largest companies in their space; and SSS is picking a fight with a much larger company. That's not a formula for success.

tachyon

 

[pete340]

I cant fathom why everyone is immediately saying DAN is innocent in all this as theres nothing at all to back that up.

I, for one, haven't said that DAN is innocent. What I've said, and I stand by it, is that SSS's press releases should be understood for what they are: a sleazy attempt to gain an advantage in a business dispute by scaring DAN's customers with half truths and innuendos. And, unfortunately, it seems to be working.

 

[ItsBruce]

I see this as just a business dispute in which one side took the classless approach of issuing a press release designed to force the other to capitulate. Even though some people who have seen the press release expressed concern, it does not appear to have had the desired effect, to wit, forcing capitulation.

DAN, on the other hand, has taken the high road. It could have issued broad press releases and sent its members, by way of Alert Diver magazine, a warning about diving in particular locations. For example, it could have warned that diving in certain locations is more hazardous because chamber operators in those areas overcharge. Heck, DAN could say it would not cover dive accidents in those locations, period. Given that there are only a handful of areas, I suspect only a handful of people would switch their insurance away from DAN. But, the effect on the dive sites would be devastating. I suspect the hotels, restaurants and dive ops would pressure the chambers to fall in line.

But, DAN took the high road and didn’t do this.

If the chambers won’t take my insurance because they are having a dispute with my insurer over what is reasonable and customary charges, I’ll dive somewhere else. Its not like there aren’t lots of good places to dive. It may hurt the dive ops. Sorry. The dive ops should put pressure on the chambers just as the chambers are putting on DAN.

IMPORTANT: Does anyone know of a single incident in which a diver was not treated? That would be important in assessing the impact of this dispute.

ALSO IMPRTANT: While I have not actually read policies issued by DAN or other dive insurers, every other insurance policy I’ve ever read (and there are many) states that the insurer will reimburse the insured for reasonable and customary charges. Just look at your auto policy or your homeowners’ policy or your health insurance policy, etc.

In terms of health insurance, many doctors or hospitals have deals with the insurers under which they will accept as full payment whatever the insurer deems reasonable and customary. In exchange, the doctors or hospitals are placed on the “preferred provider” list.

Doctors or hospitals that don’t have such deals will still get paid the reasonable and customary charges, as per the insurance policy, and the remainder is the patient’s responsibility.

Of course, doctors or hospitals who have deals with insurers don’t require payment up front. It appears that most chambers have such deals with DAN.

Thus, the question: What happens with chambers and other insurers? Are there deals in place or do the insureds have to pay up front and then get reimbursed by the insurers? And, if the insureds pay up front, are they fully reimbursed or just for reasonable and customary. If the latter, then it would be important that the chambers what are having a dispute with DAN fall in line with reasonable and customary.

 

[pete340]

http://www.underwatertimes.com/news2.php?article_id=07610425813

"...numerous chamber operators...". Sigh.

 

[cdiver2]

I see this as just a business dispute in which one side took the classless approach of issuing a press release designed to force the other to capitulate. Even though some people who have seen the press release expressed concern, it does not appear to have had the desired effect, to wit, forcing capitulation.

DAN, on the other hand, has taken the high road. It could have issued broad press releases and sent its members, by way of Alert Diver magazine, a warning about diving in particular locations. For example, it could have warned that diving in certain locations is more hazardous because chamber operators in those areas overcharge. Heck, DAN could say it would not cover dive accidents in those locations, period. Given that there are only a handful of areas, I suspect only a handful of people would switch their insurance away from DAN. But, the effect on the dive sites would be devastating. I suspect the hotels, restaurants and dive ops would pressure the chambers to fall in line.

But, DAN took the high road and didn’t do this.

If the chambers won’t take my insurance because they are having a dispute with my insurer over what is reasonable and customary charges, I’ll dive somewhere else. Its not like there aren’t lots of good places to dive. It may hurt the dive ops. Sorry. The dive ops should put pressure on the chambers just as the chambers are putting on DAN.

IMPORTANT: Does anyone know of a single incident in which a diver was not treated? That would be important in assessing the impact of this dispute.

ALSO IMPRTANT: While I have not actually read policies issued by DAN or other dive insurers, every other insurance policy I’ve ever read (and there are many) states that the insurer will reimburse the insured for reasonable and customary charges. Just look at your auto policy or your homeowners’ policy or your health insurance policy, etc.

In terms of health insurance, many doctors or hospitals have deals with the insurers under which they will accept as full payment whatever the insurer deems reasonable and customary. In exchange, the doctors or hospitals are placed on the “preferred provider” list.

Doctors or hospitals that don’t have such deals will still get paid the reasonable and customary charges, as per the insurance policy, and the remainder is the patient’s responsibility.

Of course, doctors or hospitals who have deals with insurers don’t require payment up front. It appears that most chambers have such deals with DAN.

Thus, the question: What happens with chambers and other insurers? Are there deals in place or do the insureds have to pay up front and then get reimbursed by the insurers? And, if the insureds pay up front, are they fully reimbursed or just for reasonable and customary. If the latter, then it would be important that the chambers what are having a dispute with DAN fall in line with reasonable and customary.

It depends on the chamber on how they want paying. First DAN states you must submit any claim to you PRIMARY INSURANCE FIRST (if you have it). After treatment in Palau the hospital/chamber only wanted my DAN information, primary insurance information, credit card and partial cash payment was refused, all they wanted was my DAN card.
In this dispute I have to ask the question why is it some chambers trust DAN implicitly and others refuse to accept there insurance.

 

[ItsBruce]

Other than the chambers that are part of the dispute, which, according to other posts, are all owned by the same guy, it seems that all chambers, everywhere consider DAN as good as gold. Interestingly, my local hospital here in SoCal does seem to trust biggies like Aetna or Blue Cross and want all sorts of payment assurances.

My bottom line: So long as DAN will sell me dive insurance, I'll buy it. So long as the chambers in the listed locales don't play by the rules set by DAN or other chambers are not available there (e.g. Cozumel), I'll dive elsewhere. Its not like there aren't lots of places to dive.