Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[MikeFerrara]

Yes the number of injuries seems small. What about on the west coast where they lose more than one a month on average? What about Gilboa quarry? Is it acceptable given the cause.

When I mentioned the dan report I should have been clearer. The report geves a percentage of dives that resulted in injury where BC problems were reported. This is prior to the panicked bolt for the surface. Like walter says divers panick because of discomfort. I have yet to hear of a case of injury that was not needlessly self inflicted. When a diver is out of breath due to heavy work due to poor BC and a straw breaks the cammels back (like a free flow) and he bolts and gets hurt....pardon me but the problem is training. This is a scenario I have witnessed more than once. What is an acceptable number of these? I say ZERO because the BC problems and the overexertion should never have existe. I'm not saying that we can eliminate panick 100%. Stats like diving is as safe as bowling make me sick. I have never seen bowlers hauled out of the bowling alley by an ambulance but I have seen 5 or six at Gilboa quarry.

 

[Walter]

"Even when 35% of the fatalities that occur involve divers with 10 years diving experience?

That's an awful stretch, especially in view of the overall numbers to begin with."

Do 35% of the panicked divers have 10 years experience or 35% of all divers injured?

Panic comes, as Mike said, from not being comfortable. Not being comfortable comes from not having confidence in one's ability. No confidence comes from inadequate training. If you never get the foundation, it doesn't matter how long you dive, unless you go back and lay a solid foundation, your house will crumble in a storm. I hear that the old dive course is now broken down into OW and AOW. That's a lie. AOW never goes back to teach basic skills that are left out of most classes today.

There's no stretch at all.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I'm not saying that we can eliminate panick 100%. Stats like diving is as safe as bowling make me sick. I have never seen bowlers hauled out of the bowling alley by an ambulance but I have seen 5 or six at Gilboa quarry.

Hey come on Mike, do you bowl? I do, in a league and we have two or three heart attacks or strokes a year just at our small alley. Bowlers aren't the most fit group of sportsman i've ever seen you know.

I agree trying to compare the two is rather ridiculous but so is comparing diving to most other activities. All of us who drive are statistically in a lot more danger driving to and from work each day but we generally take that for granted because for the most part it's achieved successfully everyday. Doesn't make it any less dangerous. Therefore, another bad comparison.

You know i agree with you that poor training is a cause of some of the problem. It's just not the only cause and IMO i have doubts it's the major cause. Doesn't mean i don't think training shouldn't or couldn't be improved in an attempt to achieve zero injuries due to poor instruction. That will never be possible due to the human condition but it is a great goal IMO.

Ps: Check your shop email and get back to me via email

 

[MikeFerrara]

Poor training may not be the only or even the biggest cause. But it is a cause we can control. It is also a cause that IMO there is no excuse for though we rationalize our way out by comparing diving to driving and bowliong. Divers are responsible for keeping their skills sharp if they ever were to begin with. But...how many instructors really drive that fact home to the student? I don't tell students it's ok to have bc and trim trouble as a new diver. I tell them that the way to control the risks of diving is to polish basic skills. That may not be the quickest or cheapest rout to their planned vacation and it hasen't made me the richest LDS owner around but the ones that get it also reap the benefits.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Yes the number of injuries seems small. What about on the west coast where they lose more than one a month on average? What about Gilboa quarry? Is it acceptable given the cause.

When I mentioned the dan report I should have been clearer. The report geves a percentage of dives that resulted in injury where BC problems were reported. This is prior to the panicked bolt for the surface. Like walter says divers panick because of discomfort. I have yet to hear of a case of injury that was not needlessly self inflicted. When a diver is out of breath due to heavy work due to poor BC and a straw breaks the cammels back (like a free flow) and he bolts and gets hurt....pardon me but the problem is training. This is a scenario I have witnessed more than once. What is an acceptable number of these? I say ZERO because the BC problems and the overexertion should never have existe. I'm not saying that we can eliminate panick 100%. Stats like diving is as safe as bowling make me sick. I have never seen bowlers hauled out of the bowling alley by an ambulance but I have seen 5 or six at Gilboa quarry.

I'm thoroughly familiar with the DAN report.

So it's your contention, in the situation you describe, that out of the millions of certified divers in the US (to limit the scope), it should be possible to train them to a point where 100% of these divers will panic 0% of the time, regardless of circumstance?

And that instructor's training aegis should span the diver's -entire- active participation in the sport?

Keep in mind this theory also absolves the individual diver of responsability in any such circumstance.

 

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
"Even when 35% of the fatalities that occur involve divers with 10 years diving experience?

That's an awful stretch, especially in view of the overall numbers to begin with."

Do 35% of the panicked divers have 10 years experience or 35% of all divers injured?

Panic comes, as Mike said, from not being comfortable. Not being comfortable comes from not having confidence in one's ability. No confidence comes from inadequate training. If you never get the foundation, it doesn't matter how long you dive, unless you go back and lay a solid foundation, your house will crumble in a storm. I hear that the old dive course is now broken down into OW and AOW. That's a lie. AOW never goes back to teach basic skills that are left out of most classes today.

There's no stretch at all.

I think you're missing the bigger picture. If a diver isn't comfortable after -ten years- of diving, I don't think that this point should be laid at the feet of his instructor from a decade ago.

And that's Mike's stretch.

As for the 35%, panicked or not, the number is insignificant.

To round up in your favor, the 35% represents 35 diver fatalities, -before- accounting for natural causes, that you gauge against thousands of instructors doing tens of thousands of dives annually, and assuming 100% culpability of the instruction quality as the cause of death.

The number is insignificant, and certainly doesn't indicate the legions of incompetent instructors that some would imply.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I think this...yes, I think there are Instrustors who are not thurough. I also think that the majority of these instructors are the ones who do weekend course certs and are driven by the financial gain available from the general public. This is why a lot of advice given here on the board to newbies is to talk to the instructor and feel comfortable with that person before he or she strarts training you how to support your life underwater.

That said, I also think the the number of fatalities in diving isn't directly related to lack of instruction. I don't know any stats, but I do know how some people think. Did you ever hear of anyone doing this? You're in driving school, but in order to pass you have to do everything your instructor is telling you. Now you have a license and you drive on your own. Do you use your turn signal all the time? Do you always stop for the red light? Are you aware of all the cars around you? Obviously not, or we wouldn't have as many driving accidents and fatalites as we do. Fact of the matter is, not everyone always does every little thing to be safe.

Does this mean I beleive there are no bad instructors....no, but it does mean that there are plenty of people who do what they need to in order to get by, then they do what they want, no matter who trained them. I do believe that there are "bad" instructors certifying people left and right. I also believe that there are "bad" people not doing what they were taught in class.

One thing I don't like about a SCUBA cert is that it is good for life. Sure ten years ago you were certified and made 40 dives per year. Now you haven't hit the water in the last 5 years. You're somewhere nice and decide to hit the water. You rent gear, but it looks nothing like the gear that you used that was 5 years old when you got certified way back. Already most people are in an uncomfortable state but hey, I've got a card, I can dive.....

Without constant repition and or training, you lose it, I don't care what the skill is, you need some time before you are back up to speed.

 

[TCDiver1]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...

One thing I don't like about a SCUBA cert is that it is good for life. Sure ten years ago you were certified and made 40 dives per year. Now you haven't hit the water in the last 5 years. You're somewhere nice and decide to hit the water. You rent gear, but it looks nothing like the gear that you used that was 5 years old when you got certified way back. Already most people are in an uncomfortable state but hey, I've got a card, I can dive.....

Without constant repition and or training, you lose it, I don't care what the skill is, you need some time before you are back up to speed.

In full agreemnet with this. Lacking any pertinent stats, IME, this is as big or bigger problem than lack of competent instruction.

I have long thought c-cards should renewed via a skills check on a regular basis, regardless of how many logged dives one has :boom:

To extend that thought, instructors should have to go through their own review to insure quality control. I hate to say it but i never see the bigs doing something like that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


I'm thoroughly familiar with the DAN report.

So it's your contention, in the situation you describe, that out of the millions of certified divers in the US (to limit the scope), it should be possible to train them to a point where 100% of these divers will panic 0% of the time, regardless of circumstance?

And that instructor's training aegis should span the diver's -entire- active participation in the sport?

Keep in mind this theory also absolves the individual diver of responsability in any such circumstance.

That isn't what I said read my last post. BASIC skills are the ticket folks. You tell me why do so few diver posses them? Where they no tought the stuff or do they not realize the importance? both? It doesn't end with the instructor but it starts there.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...



I think you're missing the bigger picture. If a diver isn't comfortable after -ten years- of diving, I don't think that this point should be laid at the feet of his instructor from a decade ago.

And that's Mike's stretch.

As for the 35%, panicked or not, the number is insignificant.

To round up in your favor, the 35% represents 35 diver fatalities, -before- accounting for natural causes, that you gauge against thousands of instructors doing tens of thousands of dives annually, and assuming 100% culpability of the instruction quality as the cause of death.

The number is insignificant, and certainly doesn't indicate the legions of incompetent instructors that some would imply.

And that's why it continues without the agencies enforcing standards or maybe even raising them. The numbers are insignificant.