I feel that a hundred dives only opens ones eyes. I started tek diving at 100 dives because I was confortable with it and my buddies also thought I had the skill. But to start teaching, I think you need about 200 dives.
Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?
- Thread starter wazza
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jhelmuth
Contributor
Why is the master/apprentice system not used more these days? This would seem to be a perfect application of that system. I still say 100 dives is now way close to enough. For the senior DI's out there (I'd call them Master Divers in the master/apprentice system) - would you be very likely to promote an apprentice diver to the status of DI with so little experience (remember, that as the master DI your reputation will be closely linked to those you promote)?
DivePartner1
Contributor
Well, I've had several incompetent instructors and have seen more. Of my instructors for 10 or so C-cards, I'd trust 2 to teach OW. Most, but not all, of the remainder are competetent to assist reasonably sized classes.
My OW class was far too big and we were only taught how to pass the test, not dive. The instructor and his assistants rarely had control of what most of us were doing. My non-diving GF de jure was horrified at the spectacle. Several obviously non-qualified divers were certified.
On my first dive trip a week later, I took AOW from one of the resort instructors and got suberb one-on-one instruction from a zen master of buoyancy. This was my first training in diving (perfect hover by dive 11, w/o DIR). Since that time, the owner of the shop where I got my Rescue card and a few others are at her in level for skill AND teaching ability.
And although I have vastly fewer years then Wreckwriter and Walter I do dive all of the place and fairly often--both coasts, warm and cold, Great Lakes, the Carribean, dive resorts, pick-up dives on last minute boats and shore dives. Most of the instruction I've seen could pass for a horror show and includes near trajedies. We've all seen the products of this kind of instruction.
While a floor of a minimum number of dives is useful to the certification agencies, the real test has to be mastery of the art and science of diving AND the wits and patience to teach. And despite the dysfunctional economics of the industry, they really need to keep class sizes reasonably small. Sadly, I don't see much of this outside of dedicated dive resorts.
DivePartner1
Contributor
So, following this logic, a doctor is not incompetent until he/she kills some one? What a breakthrough in tort reform!
If a body count is your standard of competence, you're in luck. Other than the BC project cited above, no one is accurately tracking current diver mortality. And isn't judging competence by kill rates setting the bar a bit low?
Are opinions that "most" instructors are incompetent anecdotal? Of course. Are statements like "most instructors I've see recently scare me to death" anecdotal. Go to anyplace with frequent trainings and watch the fun!
Popeye
Contributor
Following -your- logic, the majority of doctors are incompetent because an infatismal number of patients die.
Actually, you might find that Diver's Alert Network keeps lotsa nifty statistics. What they show is, that the number of diver deaths decreases, per capita, steadily.
Over a period of decades.
Neither does DAN, as the foremost dive safety authority, even address instructor competence as a problem.
I'm surprised you're not a member.
I didn't state that the body count was "my" standard of instructor competence, I said it was the only one we had.
If you note that the -average- yearly death rate (last I checked, 2002 not in yet) is about 88 divers, take out the 40% that die of natural causes, compare that to DEMA's 8 million certified divers, and (just) PADI's 200,000 annual certs, you'll see the scope of the problem.
The number of divers increases, the number of diver deaths decreases.
My numbers are aproximate, but the general idea is clear, with any numbers you may wish to employ.
As for -your- anecdotal observation from the previous post that 80% of your instructors were incompetent, and that "I've had several incompetent instructors and have seen many more", I'm curious:
What do you feel would evidence the cause-and-effect of this dirge of incompetent instruction, and how would you rate your own diving skills, since you indicate you've recieved little competent instruction?
Just curious.
I find it odd that I have 16 cards from 4 agencies, and have never met an incopetent instructor.
Not only would I not pay one, I don't understand how all this incompetence goes unreported to regulatory officials.
Maybe it's a location thing.
I think it's more of a "what's your definition of competence" thing. I get told on a regular basis on dive boats of what i'm doing wrong and how to fix it by the know it all diver that seems to be on most boats. Then, nine time out of ten times, you watch the dude flounder around underwater .... defining competence i guess.
Funny thing, it's usually a guy. Maybe it's more of a testosterone thing.
Popeye
Contributor
gedunk once bubbled...
I think it's more of a "what's your definition of competence" thing. I get told on a regular basis on dive boats of what i'm doing wrong and how to fix it by the know it all diver that seems to be on most boats. Then, nine time out of ten times, you watch the dude flounder around underwater .... defining competence i guess.
Funny thing, it's usually a guy. Maybe it's more of a testosterone thing.
Thanks.I'm an average diver that has the privelege of hanging around humble, experience divers.
I dive in the mud. The dark, the mountains, but I dive a lot.
Still, once in a while, I put my tank in the BP backwards.
Or jump in the water without my mask.
I just smile.
Because I'm human.People who dive once a year may need some help with their gear, it doesn't mean that their instructors were incompetent.
I'm always glad to help, or to dive with them.
People seem to villify the diving masses to accredit their own stature.
I also can't see paying an incompetent instructor, let alone doing it again and again.
DivePartner1
Contributor
Nice troll, but death isn't the test of incompetence of doctors or dive instructors, it's the straw man that you've set up.
DAN qualifies the limitations in their data. They track 'known' accident in the US and Canada. It does not track numbers of dives.
Really? Are insurance premiums for instructors going up or down? By how much?
Another nice troll, but answered by an attentive reading of other posts.
Popeye
Contributor
The strawman is better than anyone else's indicator.
DEMA tracks divers, but it hardly matters, unless you have a different interpretation to offer.
I'm all ears.
Have you noticed a downward trend in insurance rates that I missed?
You must read more attentively than me, because everybody else had the same indicators as you.
DEMA has no idea how many divers there are.
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