Intro to recreational deep diving

[Peter Guy]

PADI does require mask removal and replace in the OW #4.

The instructors of my LDS pretty much require the students to wear their gloves in the confined water dives 3 - 6 because they know they are going to wear them in our 50 degree open water dives.

What this discussion just shows me is that it seems to be much easier to go from cold water to warm than warm water to cold!

BTW, I've never had my mask kicked off completely (or come off with a giant stride) but I have had people come down on top of me -- including an instructor who "only had eyes for the shot" and didn't bother to look at what (or whom) she might land on! (This actually ruined the photograph I was about to take but that is another story.) OTOH, I've certainly had my mask come off too many times to count during training -- and if I couldn't get it back on with my fumbly dry gloves, I'd have been in a real world of hurt.

 

[scubadiver888]

If you can't parallel park you can just keep driving and find another spot that doesn't require it. Underwater without a mask, it might be difficult to move along and ignore it . Maybe it is just me, but I have a bit of trouble reading my gauges without my mask, however I would just ascend if needed and I can ascend without my gauges. I also find it very uncomfortable having really cold water on my face for a prolongued period (I guess my eyeballs freeze or something ). Warmer water, mask loss is no big deal. I carry a back up on dives just in case I lose it just so I don't have to end a dive because of a lost mask.

But there is a difference between being totally unable to get your mask back on and getting it on with a couple of hairs caught in the skirt. String seems to be saying to me that if I cannot get my mask back on with ALL my hair out of the skirt I shouldn't be diving. This to me is being a little unreasonable. I equate this to, if you cannot do all driving exercises you do not get your driving license. Do I need to get my mask back on PERFECTLY or well enough? Does this mean if I buy a mask and it leaks slightly I should stop diving until I find a mask which fits me perfectly?

If for some reason I did lose my mask at 100' (which is what I was thinking about when we started this) I'd take a few seconds to get it on. I might even try to get the straps straight, i.e. not twisted. I would not bother to get all my hair out of the skirt. I've tried on the boat before the dive and haven't been able to do it yet. If my hair was a lot longer I probably could but my hair is maybe two inches long. Try as I might I have yet to be successful getting those last four or five strands of hair out.

If you can complete a dive safely without your mask in warm or cold water, I wouldn't be concerned too much about not being able to replace it. I mean, I think it is silly to end a dive or have an uncomfortable dive swimming around without a mask in cold water because you can't replace your mask, but to each their own.

I guess I didn't explain myself well. If I have a mask that leaks and I'm spending the dive clearing my mask every so often it is not going to be an enjoyable dive. Have you ever had a mask that doesn't quite fit right? You borrowed a mask from a friend? The skirt is old and the silicone is losing its flexibility? You get a little water coming in all the time. You clear your mask and 5 minutes later there is water touching the bottom of your nose? That sort of thing might cause me to call a dive.

And actually, I probably could complete a dive safely without a mask. I have a large, luminescent watch I use as a back up. I can read it without my mask on. I got the watch because I once had my mask strap break and I had to end the dive but could not see the watch I was using at that time. Got the new watch because I could use it even without my mask on.

I think it is the person who gets their mask kicked off who is careless actually. If you get it kicked off then you have swum into somebody's feet Though twice I've had someone land on my head and knock it off, I get annoyed at those people (but they have both been OW students who were descending feet first... not my buddy!)

I've had someone come over my right shoulder and hook their fin on my regulator hose. That is how I once lost my regulator. Never even came close to having someone knock my mask off.

Hadn't thought about someone descending feet first onto me. I usually descend away from the line and watch for people above and below. I don't think I've ever seen some descend onto someone else.

I had to do all skills in OW including mask skills. I was told that it was a requirement of my agency and I don't have any reason to disbelieve them but do not have a requirements list handy (SSI).

I was certified PADI and have since checked the requirements. The instructor is required to have to remove/replace your mask in the confined water portion. SSI follows the same standards as PADI (World Recreational Scuba Training Council). Mind you, my instructor had me do a mask removal/replacement in open water at 40' as well.

But yea, if you can't replace your mask, whatever. I just think it is silly to dive with gloves that prevent you from doing such a simple skill as it just means if you lose it or it gets dislodged you will have a dodgy dive after that. I was doing a wreck dive the other weekend and got to the bottom and my mask came off a bit within minutes of starting the dive, after paying $58 for the boat ride, $25 for a Nitrox tank hire and driving for an hour and a half leaving very early in the morning, I would be real annoyed to have to surface because I can't replace my mask!!!

Yea, in that circumstance I would try REALLY hard to get my mask back on and if I really could get those last few hairs out of my mask I'd just suck it up and dive with a leaky mask.

$25 for Nitrox?!?? I'm hoping 'tank hire' means you are paying for the tank rental with a Nitrox fill. Even then that is a lot of money. I think you could get a trimix for that price here.

Darrell

P.S. I've been using rental gloves until now. I purchased my own gloves. Who knows, maybe I can get all the hair out of my mask with the new gloves. Find out the first time I try to suit up. Going to do some pool practise in December.

 

[scubadiver888]

PADI does require mask removal and replace in the OW #4.

You are quite correct. The WRSTC does not require it but the PADI OW course does. My mistake.

The instructors of my LDS pretty much require the students to wear their gloves in the confined water dives 3 - 6 because they know they are going to wear them in our 50 degree open water dives.

What this discussion just shows me is that it seems to be much easier to go from cold water to warm than warm water to cold!

Yes, as someone who started in warm water and moved to cold water I can honestly say it is a LOT harder. All my cold water dives thus far have been with a Dive Instructor. I've been getting trained again. I'm not required to but having swam in the water at home I KNEW diving here would be a lot different.

BTW, I've never had my mask kicked off completely (or come off with a giant stride) but I have had people come down on top of me -- including an instructor who "only had eyes for the shot" and didn't bother to look at what (or whom) she might land on! (This actually ruined the photograph I was about to take but that is another story.) OTOH, I've certainly had my mask come off too many times to count during training -- and if I couldn't get it back on with my fumbly dry gloves, I'd have been in a real world of hurt.

Yes, if I was an instructor I would DEFINITELY have mastered the skill of getting my mask on. I can honestly say that I WILL have mastered this skill by next spring (I'm not diving here again until the spring). I was going to work on it just because there must be some good reason for it. The examples Saspotato and yourself have given me makes it realize why I need to perfect this skill.

Thank you.

 

[Sas]

I guess I didn't explain myself well. If I have a mask that leaks and I'm spending the dive clearing my mask every so often it is not going to be an enjoyable dive. Have you ever had a mask that doesn't quite fit right? You borrowed a mask from a friend? The skirt is old and the silicone is losing its flexibility? You get a little water coming in all the time. You clear your mask and 5 minutes later there is water touching the bottom of your nose? That sort of thing might cause me to call a dive.

My spare mask doesn't fit properly, it fits enough so that it leaks slowly (yea about 5mins before it is annoying - it was cheap as though and it is a spare ). And I've dived with it, I'd just clear it and go on, clearing every five minutes to me, is not something that would make me call a dive but yea, to each their own

I was certified PADI and have since checked the requirements. The instructor is required to have to remove/replace your mask in the confined water portion. SSI follows the same standards as PADI (World Recreational Scuba Training Council). Mind you, my instructor had me do a mask removal/replacement in open water at 40' as well.

This is surprising to me. I have been unable to locate the requirements, could you post a link here please so I can see what else it says? Just for curiosity's sake.

$25 for Nitrox?!?? I'm hoping 'tank hire' means you are paying for the tank rental with a Nitrox fill. Even then that is a lot of money. I think you could get a trimix for that price here.

That included a 12L steel tank with 32% Nitrox at a decent discount (that is the price you'd usually pay for tank rental with air approx). This is Australia, mate It works out to $16USD, oh and don't forget purchasing power parity! So I really do not know if that works out to be more or less than what you would pay in the US. However, Trimix for $25? Helium is not cheap in Australia.

 

[Sas]

Yes, as someone who started in warm water and moved to cold water I can honestly say it is a LOT harder. All my cold water dives thus far have been with a Dive Instructor. I've been getting trained again. I'm not required to but having swam in the water at home I KNEW diving here would be a lot different.

That is a really good idea to get more training! I see some warm water divers try out the diving locally and struggle. I think given what they spend to go out on a boat, it would be better to get a refresher dive so they don't do a 5min dive like some of them do (due to inadequate exposure protection, or not enough weight for their thicker wetsuits, or just general dislike of the cold, stuff like that). Seems a shame to miss out on a proper dive when refresher courses are cheap.

Yes, if I was an instructor I would DEFINITELY have mastered the skill of getting my mask on. I can honestly say that I WILL have mastered this skill by next spring (I'm not diving here again until the spring). I was going to work on it just because there must be some good reason for it. The examples Saspotato and yourself have given me makes it realize why I need to perfect this skill.

Thank you.

Good luck

 

[scubadiver888]

My spare mask doesn't fit properly, it fits enough so that it leaks slowly (yea about 5mins before it is annoying - it was cheap as though and it is a spare ). And I've dived with it, I'd just clear it and go on, clearing every five minutes to me, is not something that would make me call a dive but yea, to each their own

Yea, I had a bad experience with snorting a little water. I hate coughing underwater. The moment my old mask started to leak a little I bought a new one.

This is surprising to me. I have been unable to locate the requirements, could you post a link here please so I can see what else it says? Just for curiosity's sake.

Not sure where I got it from but I have a PDF for the WRSTC. I also have some books. Peter Guy indicated that PADI OW dive #4 requires mask removal. I for got I had the PADI book so I looked it up. He is right. I guess the WRSTC document is the minimum requirement and each agency is allowed to exceed it. PADI obviously does. SSI probably does too. I've met some SSI divers. They seem to be pretty well prepared.

That included a 12L steel tank with 32% Nitrox at a decent discount (that is the price you'd usually pay for tank rental with air approx). This is Australia, mate It works out to $16USD, oh and don't forget purchasing power parity! So I really do not know if that works out to be more or less than what you would pay in the US. However, Trimix for $25? Helium is not cheap in Australia.

I'm in Canada but $16USD for 12L steel tank and 32% Nitrox is a good deal. I don't know anyone who rents steel here but I would guess if someone did they'd charge the equivalent of $20USD. What is 12L? I think that is a HP 100?

 

[Sas]

I'm in Canada but $16USD for 12L steel tank and 32% Nitrox is a good deal. I don't know anyone who rents steel here but I would guess if someone did they'd charge the equivalent of $20USD. What is 12L? I think that is a HP 100?

For CAD it would be $19, sorry I should have checked your location (I tend to get into the habit here of using imperial and USD ). It would be a HP100, yep. The shop was nice and gave me a discount. I have seen Nitrox tank hire advertised for $40AUD or $31CAD. Shops in Melbourne only seem to rent out HP100 or HP85 (10L, think it is 85) so not sure what an equivalent aluminium tank would be.

Edit:

Not sure where I got it from but I have a PDF for the WRSTC. I also have some books. Peter Guy indicated that PADI OW dive #4 requires mask removal. I for got I had the PADI book so I looked it up. He is right. I guess the WRSTC document is the minimum requirement and each agency is allowed to exceed it. PADI obviously does. SSI probably does too. I've met some SSI divers. They seem to be pretty well prepared.

I think at an OW level, PADI = SSI So the requirements are probably the same I agree.

 

[CPT OZZY]

That, from my experience, is one of the LEAST effective ways of demonstrating narcosis.

For my AOW we did a timed exercise. All but one of us did it FASTER at depth. I know I was Narc'd - no doubt. We figured that the guy that was timing us was also narc'd and he timed us wrong.....

BTW last weekend I went to 87 feet and Definitely felt narc'd. I think First noticed it at around 75 ft

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

We each have to choose our own comfort level with our skills, and we all have to start somewhere less than expert in every area. That being said... I would encourage everyone to be 100% comfortable replacing their mask under open water conditions.

Perhaps it leaks, perhaps there are stray hairs involved, but I would suggest everyone be comfortable regaining their eyesight. Although it might seem like a minor inconvenience to lose your mask and finish the dive squinting at your watch, what would you do if after losing your mask your buddy had a problem? What would you do if you needed to navigate back to the exit?

What if you became entangled? This is not pure conjecture, a monofilament line may have been the cause of the mask being pulled off in the first place. Do you want to cut yourself free with your eyes closed?

 

[String]

Since you asked, I was certified in warm water and did not need to use gloves.

So in reality then as your certification says - you are only qualified and safe to dive in conditions similar to you were trained in. You aren't safe in cold water.

Your obsession with being able to get your mask removed and replaced in a sensible time frame makes me think of people who cannot parallel park. I can see you as a driving examiner, failing people who cannot parallel park.

I fail people who cant meet the required standards for the course im teaching. Given mask removal is a core, essential and very simple basic skill nobody is ever going to pass if they can't do that.

Do you get your mask kicked off a lot?

How many times do you want it to happen? Only takes once on a wall or no solid bottom or a dive where you require stops for someone to get hurt. Masks can get kicked, masks can get dislodged, they can get banged, caught on help, moved in currents. Hoods can trap air and ball back away from the mask, masks can mist up and need removing to clear. Countless reasons as to why you cant guarantee a mask can stay on your face 100% of the time.

In warm water I can remove my mask, throw it away, find it, put it on, clear it in a matter of seconds. This is because I practised the exercise.

That's nice - so you maybe safe to dive in warm water. What happens if you lose it in cold water? Just think "Its ok, i can replace this in warm water" ?

Can I do that in cold water? No

It would appear your training is or was very substandard if you are unable to master a basic skill that students never exposed to to open water before manage on the first attempt.

I have NEVER had my mask removed underwater outside of doing it myself.

That's nice - how much do you want to gamble blindly hoping it never happens in real life? Just because your mask hasnt been dislodged in the small number of dives you have doesnt mean it wont ever happen. Also it doesn't have to be kicked off - simply being banged or moving in a current can move it away from the hood seal leaving you with identical problems to having it removed. And then it would appear you are in serious trouble due to being unable to perform the quick and simply skill required to fix it.

I don't dive with people who would be so careless as to kick my mask off (at least not in cold water).

Again its clear you really have no idea as to the many reasons why a mask can become dislodged in ANY condition.

You might want to double check ALL agency requirements.

Find me an agency that doesn't REQUIRE at least one full mask removal and at least another full flood in open water. I cant think of one. Its required for PADI,SSI,NAUI,BSAC,CMAS affiliates and all the major ones i can think of. Its there for a reason. You had to do it in warm water so why do you think the skill suddenly doesnt matter in cold water?

There is nothing saying a student has to wear gloves. A good dive instructor will have students do it with the same kit they'd use in open water but technically does not have to.

You start without gloves in confined, then with gloves and hood in confined then graduate to open water. An instructor would be negligent in not allowing his student to attempt the skill in the protective clothing required for open water diving.

Even in confined water, I strongly doubt most agencies have a requirement of "in a sensible time frame".

Its down to the instructor. If someone takes 5-6 minutes to clear a mask in my view they dont fit the "Confident and competent" definition BSAC require. An instructors ultimate goal is to ensure the student is safe to dive without an instructor. Someone who takes several minutes or is completely incapable of a basic vital skill like a mask replacement i dont think would meet any sane instructors definition of safe.

If you hold your students to a higher standard that is great. My instructor had me do things that went beyond the PADI requirements for OW (actually I've since learnt some things I was required to do go beyond AOW) but the things he added were things he knew I might need some day.

Thereby probably breaking standards too. Lovely.
Expecting a qualified diver to be able to remove and replace his mask is not holding a higher standard at all - its expecting an absolutely basic minimal skill level required to dive safely.