Interested in a primary light for less than $400, opinions wanted!

[DA Aquamaster]

I am twisting in the wind trying to decide between the Dive Rite 500, 700, 1000, and the Salvo Rebel 12w. Since the budget is limited I don't see myself owning multiple lights in the near term. So, compromise is the name of the game. All of the above lights are $625 or less so I guess the original $400 budget takes a hit, oh well. To the point of not chasing off local creatures the DR500 is attractive and a reasonable travel light at the same time. But the other lights leave several trade-offs I can not seem to sort out. If anyone has used or demo'd any combination of these lights I'd like to know your impression.

On a $400 budget both the MR 11 10 watt HID and the 500 LED (without the cord) are do-able.

A 700 LED will cost you another $150.

The LED 500

In my experience, the 500 LED is a great back up light for cave diving and it is I think ideal for night diving as it is not dependent on a charger, works on regular AA batteries, has about 20 hours of burntime before it begins sequentially powering down the three LED's and has a very even beam with no central hot spot.

As a primary is is not lacking in brightness for cave diving or wreck penetration, but it is lacking in pentration in silty or tannicky water. The lack of a central hot spot, while being nice on a night dive, limits the ability to signal with the light and it seriosuly impacts light penetration in silt. I have been very dissapointed with it on off shore wrecks.

The corded attachment is nice, especially if you like the convenience of a goodman handle. And if used as a can light the "can" portion of the light is comparatively small. However the head of the light is the same diameter and is both large and long comnpared to the MR11 or 700 LED, so there are pros and cons.

The MR 11 10 HID

I used it as my cave diving and wreck diving primary for about a year and it works great. It offers enough light for all but really large wrecks (like the hanger deck on the Oriskany) and the bright central spot is great for both signalling and pentrating silty water. It is in the process of being discontinued so it can be purchased for a great price - around $350 on line. Like all HID's the bulb is expensive to replace and cannot be turned off and on without 3 or 4 minute long warm up and cool down periods.

The 700 LED

It is noticeably brighter than the 500 LED, but has the same even beam. When compared side by side with the 10 watt HID with the beams overlapped, the HID is only very slightly brighter in the central spot. That removes the siganlling issues with the LED 700 and improves but does not totally resolve the silty water pentration issues. And Dive Rite will upgrade the later model black aluminum MR11 heads to the LED 700 head for $150 - about $40 more than a new HID bulb, so you could buy a 10watt HID and upgrade to the LED 700 later as the battery and cannister are identical.

During one dive recently, I loaned by 10 W HID to my buddy whose primary was not working, and consequently got to compare it with my LED 700 primary and handheld LED 500 back up. The 10 watt HID and LED 700 compare very closely to one another while the LED is noticeably dimmer.


In short:

1. If you really need the penetration, go with the 10 W HID.

2. If you want no charger convenience, can live with reduced pentration and want a light that is less prone to scaring off fishies, and either a handlheld design or a slightly larger light head, go with the LED 500.

3. If you have to stay under $400 go with #1 or the hand held version of #2.

4. Otherwise, go with the LED 700 as it is a great all round light.

 

[SandyRobinson]

carobinsoniv- I appreciate the input regarding the subject of "too much" light. I must admit the more diffuse lighting of lesser lights was beneficial at night. I'm just a little surprised that there is not a fold-over light diffuser for bigger lights to mute them a bit for creature chasing. (Just like diffusers for flash photography.)

You're welcome. and you are correct. A diffuser would be nice and make a light more versatile (sp). If you have any thoughts about tech (wreck) diving, the canister light may be the route to go. If you do go tech, you will need a back-up light(s) but you can buy a decent one for less than 50. I think you can find the tec 40s for 20.

I have been happy with my DRs which are the MR11s. Next time the bulbs go, they will be converted to an LED though. I have not dove with a DR LED but will do so during the next tech event they sponsor.

Good luck with your choices. There are certainy a lot from which to choose and to consider.

 

[cobbonthecorn]

Aquamaster-

Did I understand your comment correctly that the DR 700 can be used to signal? e.g. Similar to the 10W HID. Thanks!

Anyone-

I am a little confused by the battery needs of the DR500 vs DR700. First, if the DR500 uses rechargeable batteries in series then that would be 9.6V (8*1.2V). But the light tapers at 10V. That suggests diminished performance from the start if rechargeable batteries are used. True?
Next, the size of the canister battery dwarfs 8 AA batteries in size, yet a DR700 only gets 4 hours of operation. This suggests 200 lumens more is very expensive. But the DR1000 can run 3.5 hours on this battery suggesting the energy use is proportional. Am I missing something or is the canister battery provided less than capable?

 

[eliminator]

Dive Rite 500 Lumen LED Primary Light

$399 for their 500 Lumen cord light

SALE PACKAGE - LED 500 LIGHT

We have made a special quantity purchase and offer, for a limited time, an LED 500-Lumen Dive Light SALE package that includes the following items:

• LED 500-Lumen Hand Held Light
• Cord Assembly
• Goodman Hand Mount
• Wrist Lanyard
• Mesh Waist Pocket
• Carry Case

The package allows you to easily switch between the hand-held and the corded configuration. The mesh pocket with Velcro® closure is easily mountable on any 2-inch webbing waist strap. The Textilene® mesh pocket drains easily as well as being abrasion and tear resistant. A Nylon stiffener helps the pocket retain it's form for ease of replacing the light back in the pocket. If you wish, the pocket can also be used to protect the light during storage. The Goodman hand mount offers the option of a traditional canister light hand mount and is made from stainless steel. Hand clearance is adjustable by loosening screws found on both sides of the handle. The handy carry case includes foam padding and keeps all the components organized.
Terrific Deal!
All accessories for the price of the light alone!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Aquamaster-

Did I understand your comment correctly that the DR 700 can be used to signal? e.g. Similar to the 10W HID. Thanks!

Anyone-

I am a little confused by the battery needs of the DR500 vs DR700. First, if the DR500 uses rechargeable batteries in series then that would be 9.6V (8*1.2V). But the light tapers at 10V. That suggests diminished performance from the start if rechargeable batteries are used. True?
Next, the size of the canister battery dwarfs 8 AA batteries in size, yet a DR700 only gets 4 hours of operation. This suggests 200 lumens more is very expensive. But the DR1000 can run 3.5 hours on this battery suggesting the energy use is proportional. Am I missing something or is the canister battery provided less than capable?

In my experience the LED 700 was bright enough to compete with other lights when signaling in a cave environment. 10W and 21W HID's still have slightly brighter center spots but the LED 700 is not washed out by the rest of the beam and the light is focused well enough to provide a visible spot on a cave wall at a considerable distance.

My understanding of LED technology is that the efficiency of bright white LED's has been doubling about every 3 years. In my personal experience, my 10 W HID has a 3.5 hour burn time (but an older battery pack) while the LED 700 burns about 4.5 hours on the same type pack. I have not done burn tests with the battery packs switched.

With regard to burn time, the 8 alkaine AA cells used in the LED 500 are not an apples to apples comparison with the 9000 mA NiMH battery used in the 10W HID and LED 700. For example, Alkaline AA cells are typically rated at a minimum of 2500 mA each. So 8 of them give a total capacity of 20,000 mA - over twice the battery capacity. And I have not burn tested the LED 500 to test the DR claim on burn time.

Also, rechargable AA cells usually have a 1.2 volt rating, but Alkaline AA cells are usually rated at 1.5 volts, so 8*1.5=12 volts, the same as the 12V 9000mA pack used in the LED 700 and 10w HID. The theoretical difference in mA capacity alone would give the LED 700 a full power burn time of 10 hours, all other things being equal - which they are not, but more on that later.

The difference in voltage between Alkaline and NiMH AA cells however is not quite as great as you would think as NiMH and NiCad batteries tend to maintain peak voltage until almost totaly exhausted with a sudden drop in voltage at the end, while an Alkaline cell almost immediately experiences a drop in voltage but has a much longer and more linear discharge curve with no sudden drop at the end of the curve. You can see this in halogen flashlight applications where the light gradually gets dimmer with an alkaline battery while it dims extremely fast with a rechargable battery.

This is I am pretty sure where the LED 500 acquires the trait of shutting down one and then a second LED as voltage drops - something that would not happen in the same manner with a rechargeable cell as the voltage would start out at or near the current 10 volt threshold. That stepping down in output as voltage begins to fall also greatly extends burn time in the last third or so of the alkaline battery pack's life. It is I think an ideal trait for a backup light as it will not suddenly leave you in the dark, but it also means that burn time is again not an apples to apples comparision.

And to complicate it further, an alkaline battery rated at 2800 mA can not deliver that full capacity at high discharge rates and in fact an 1800 mA NiMH battery will probably deliver more power at higher discharge rates. So...the Alkaline AA battery pack works fine in the LED 500 as the current demand is still within the capacity of the Alkaine battery to keep up. And stepping down the power drain toward the end of the battery life no doubt helps get the most out of the battery pack. However the same alkaline battery pack would not work in the LED 700 or the 10 w HID as the current drain is too high so you would not be able to actually get the theoretical 10 hours of burn time from an LED 700 connected to the LED 500's alkaline battery pack.

That said, if the historic doubling every 3 years in bright white light LED efficiency continues, it is possible that in the future a 700 lumen light could be supported with an alkaline battery pack.

But at present it means the LED 500 cannot use a rechargeable NiMH battery and the LED 700 and 10 w HID could not use the LED 500's higher capacity, but lower current limited alkaline battery pack to get more burn time. It also means that the LED 700 cannot be set up with the same gradual power down operation used by the LED 500 since NiMH and alkaline batteries have different voltage/discharge curves.

One other thing worth noting is that NiMH batteries self discharge at a rate of 2-3 percent per day just sitting on the shelf, so it is imperative you top them off before each diving day as the burn time in a LED 700 or 10w HID would be reduced to perhaps as little as 1-1.5 hours after a month in storage. Alkaline cells on the other hand self dischage at a rate of perhaps 2% per year if stored at room temperature so they are ideal for back up lights and in lights used by the occassional traveling diver.

 

[DiveMaven]

Have you looked at Nocturnal Lights? They make excellent, aluminum lights that have many options, including a hand mount, and are super sturdy. We have 2 SLX LED lights and find them to be outstanding on batteries (they take AA batteries!!), getting about 30 hours of use. The light is very white with a nice focus area that diffuses out about 3' from the center. It's really great to be able to use the diffused area for photography focus and night diving as to not blind the subject.

 

[Blazinator]

For less than 400 bucks is the Darkbuster 24 watt HID @ a whopping 1750 Lumens. $389.00 on Scubatoys.com last I looked.

Like many have said earlier, brighter is not better in tropical clear water, which is why I use a flip away video diffuser (shoot video anyway), but like you, I dive great lakes shipwrecks, and the brighter the better.

Lithium Ion rechargeable, 3 hr burn time, great light. I converted my light into a goodman-style handle and dive hands free now with it.

If you want brightest for that price range, there is no opinion here, just fact - look it up - Edge Brightstar HID Underwater Dive Light reviews and discounts, Edge Lighting

 

[cobbonthecorn]

Lots of great information and ideas. From the perspective of a canister the MR11 Sunspot and DR700 seem to be comparable. Any thoughts on the DR 1000 HID? The price is similar to that of a DR700. Has anyone compared the two? How about the LED vs HID issue? Again, thanks for all the feedback!

 

[Blazinator]

How about the LED vs HID issue?

Are you interested in brightness for low vis penetration (HID), or longer burn times in a lighter weight light (LED)?

The best LEDs mentioned above push 700 Lumens - nice lights for sure. But add over 1000 lumens more and you have my HID above for same price. Burn time doesn't bother me, as I charge my light after every dive, and weight underwater isn't an issue.

A 24 watt HID @ 1750 Lumens means over three times the brightness of a 500 Lumen LED.

 

[cobbonthecorn]

Thanks for all of your feedback. I finally decided after considering my options, and your comments and opinions. So the story goes like this. I really like the LED concept, especially for travel. But I dive in less than ideal conditions and the majority opinion was in favor of the HID. Since this is my first primary light the budget is low. Lots of strong pulls for Salvo, but Dive Rite was never outwardly dismissed.

When I started looking the Dive Rite 500 LED, 700 LED, 1000 HID, and the Salvo Rebel 12W LED were all strong contenders and within my budget. The DR 500 seemed too much like a flashlight looking for a solution so it fell off the list. The DR 700 and the Salvo 12W were close but most that had used both felt the Salvo had a stronger center beam. So the Salvo 12W seemed most likely of the two. The downside to the Salvo 12W LED was its lack of deep central penetration so now the DR 1000 was in the running, not to mention it is brighter. (I know ÅÃright is relative in many ways.)

So I thought the Salvo Rebel was going to be it, or at least I though so. Easy to travel with, good reviews, solid reputation. Then disaster struck! It seems that Salvo raised its pricing on the Rebel 12W this week by over $150. So I went cursing and shopping, or was it shopping and cursing, anyway, after some negotiating I was able to get the DR 1000 for less than the DR 700, and a whole bunch less then the Salvo 12W Rebel. Again, thanks for all of your inputs!