Integrated Inflator/Alternate Air

[Rick L]

Hmm I must be missing the point you are making!!
If they grab the regulator out of your mouth(I agree)
Why is a 2nd reg better than a inflator combo???
I know where it is 16 inches away from my mouth!
If that is to much to handle I would not feel like I could dive!!
Having a reg pulled out of your mouth should not cause you to panic! (Unless your tank and regulator went with it hehe)
I know a lot of people are dir here. but that is not the only way
to dive. not everyone is a cave or wreck diver or wants to be!!
My 2 cents Rick L

 

[Lost Yooper]

At a time of crisis, the more effieciency you can muster, the better. For the more advanced (technical, extreme) dives, this efficiency is critical, but I don't see it as any less critical for all divers.

Granted, not everyone wants to be a "technical" diver, but everyone should want to strive for efficiency and obtain the safest diving skills possible. The trick is who you're going to learn from -- your average everyday recreational "PADI" instructor, or highly skilled (and actually "experienced") technical divers who specialty is in efficiency and safety in some of the most demanding environments in the world (namely the WKPP and GUE).

Sure, there's more than one way to dive and configure your gear, but how do you feel knowing there might be a better (not necessarily more complicated or expensive) way as proven by an elite group of extreme divers?

Just a thought?

Mike

 

[monster]

I have to agree with Rick L, I don't see how having the second regulator bungeed under your chin (which I do when I dive tec) is that much more efficient than having your integrated unit as the second reg. As responsible divers, our job is to make sure we are confident enough with our own dive skills that WE don't get thrown by someone yanking our primary reg out of our mouths.

An important point here, I think, is that the hose on the reg in your mouth is long enough to comfortably share with your buddy or whoever needs it.

The long hose (5'-7') could cause some problems, too, because typically in an air-sharing situation, you should be making close contact with the person you are sharing air with, so that you can help the person, who might be panicky at that point.

The long hose makes sense for cave, wreck, and tec because you have to be able to share air with someone well behind you (as in when entering a tunnel in single file; in which case, the person behind you will HAVE to signal you, there's no way they can grab your reg), or even in open water tec, it's not practical to be too close to each other since you could be carrying several stage and deco tanks.

 

[BILLB]

The long hose primary works to relieve stress both on the donor and receiver. Granted you need to gather your bearings in an out of air situation and help the once panic stricken diver. The long hose was not an invention that was dumped on divers. It has been tested over time and of all the other configurations this works best for many, many divers. Some have remarked to me that it might get tangled. This simply does not happen. You are more likely get your lower BCD dump valve caught than entangelment with the long hose.

Then lets talk about quality. I dive with two high performance regulators (and two first stages with my single tank H valves). I have dived with less than high performance and know the differece especiall at the deeper (100'+) depths. I would like to see Rodale do a Scuba Lab test on these BC intergrated regs and rate performance even to the lowest price "quality" regs on the market.

Choices are out there and many of them are excellent. That is why all of us are presenting our ideas on this matter. Make an informed decision to the best of your ability. You can pay a lot or pay less. Both may be able to serve you well. Just keep asking questions and learn!

 

[monster]

I like that idea, having Rodale's ScubaLab test the integrated units like they do regulators. Like I said, my AS2 breathes fine, even at 120', though definitely not as good as my primary (B1Ti2). Haven't tested it beyond 120', and don't intend to, as I use a different set of regs (high-performance, too ) for my tec setup.

 

[The Chairman]

a far higher opinion of Rodales than I have. They accept money to do their tests... unlike a Consumer's Reports concept. There is no way a test can be fair when money is exchanging hands. I would really like to see an INDEPENDENT testing firm which does NOT rely on testing fees to muddle through the crap for us. Conflict of interest: They didn't invent it, but they sure have perfected it!

I have contemplated the 7' hose, but I deal with too many students and new divers. It would confuse them, and heck when they run out of air, I want to be CLOSE and look them in the eyes so I can see just how scared they really are. I also want them to be close to me for their added feeling of security when a more experienced diver steps in to keep them safe. Contrary to some assertions I have heard, OOA does not happen THAT often... at least not around me. I have only had to deal with it once at 68' and my proximity to the distressed diver was the only thing that kept them from bolting to the surface a hundred times. Training is great, but when you are scared out of your wits, a firm hold is about the only thing to keep you under control. Two days after the incident, I talked with the diver in question... she was grateful, and showed me the bruises on her forearm where I held on like a pit bull. I have been told, (PADI DM book???) that the single greatest factor in barotrauma is the diver running out of air at depth.

 

[monster]

NetDoc --

Interesting bit of info about ScubaLab. Didn't know that. Their testing methods (at least as they are described in their own literature) seem to be objective at least, though.

I haven't had an unanticipated OOA or Low Air situation happen on me either (by unanticipated, I mean that when I know a diver is low on air, I adjust the dive profile, or buddy them up with one of my safety divers, or get them on an AAS while completing their safety stop, so they can ascend on their own using their own air).

I have had quite a few of my divers get panic attacks -- runaway ascents due to stuck inflators, overexertion -- and, yup, the proximity, the physical reassurance of being close and the panicked diver/student knowing you're there to help them, they find that the most help of all.

And yes, according to stats, the single leading cause of barotrauma is a diver running out of or low on air, leading them to reactions such as holding their breath to try and conserve what they have. And the leading cause of the OOA/LowA situation is, according to the PADI Divemaster manual, diver error, i.e., not checking their gauges enough.

rgds,
your everyday "PADI" instructor

 

[Lost Yooper]

I don't exactly understand where this leap of having a long hose and not being in close contact with a panicked OOA diver is coming from. The procedures remain the same regardless of the long hose (at least for open water). You grab a hold of their harness and donate the long hose being breathed. Maintain eye contact, calm them down, then ascend slowly. The long hose (5' for open water) simply offers more comfort to both divers and a MORE streamlined configuration than traditional hose routing.

The 7' hose is more for overhead environments, but works just fine for everything. If you plan on ever doing overhead stuff, get the 7' hose now and get used to it before you venture into an overhead environment. Some people can reach down with their teeth and grap the backup reg on the bungied necklace -- hands free.

Later.

Mike

 

[buff]

I ship my regs out for service. Shipping out an alt. air source that is attached to the BC means shipping out the BC and that's more weight and that's more shipping expense.

The alt. air thing just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

hey Yooper!

"Some people can reach down with their teeth and grap the backup reg on the bungied necklace -- hands free."

Isn't that an old bar trick?

hahaha

 

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by buff
I ship my regs out for service. Shipping out an alt. air source that is attached to the BC means shipping out the BC and that's more weight and that's more shipping expense.

The alt. air thing just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

hey Yooper!

"Some people can reach down with their teeth and grap the backup reg on the bungied necklace -- hands free."

Isn't that an old bar trick?

hahaha

That's how I see it, anyway. In the recreational diving market and much of the tech market, functionality and practicality take a back seat to thoughtless gimmicks and color coordination. If it looks good, it MUST be good, I guess .

"Bar trick", yeah it must be ! I'm not too good at that either. Need more practice, I guess .

Mike