Instructors - Agencies Split from overweight

[DeepSeaDan]

Define "their stuff". They know what they've been taught and they know the standards and most follow them. They can all do a pretty job of clearing a mask whie kneeling and their students can clear a mask while kneeling. However, none of them, including the instructor, has ever had to demonstrate that they can dive because the standards don't require that.

...define: "...has ever had to demonstrate they can dive"...

 

[MikeFerrara]

...define: "...has ever had to demonstrate they can dive"...

I'll give several examples of what I mean.

The PADI OW course standards don't state any performance requirements for the tour portion of the dive. The student can bounce and crawl through it and meet the requirements of the standards.

The student is never asked to do any dive related tasks like...replace a mask, initiate air sharing or whatever...in a diving context...ie while off the bottom and diving. Everything is (or can be) done while kneeling.

But, look at the standards for AOW, rescue, DM or instructor training and testing. It's all the same and they never get around to the diving part. No place in that progression is a diver required to be taught or demonstrate good diving technique. In the AOW course, divers sit on the bottom below 60 ft and do a puzzle for time (deep diving means deep kneeling), they sit in the bottom and tie knots for their S&R dive, They bounce and crawl through their nav course and that meets standards. There aren't any performance requirements related to how the student is actually diving. DM and instructor candidates are tested on their ability to demonstrate skills while kneeling and supervise divers who are demonstrating skills while kneeling.

The training standards give us no reason to believe that an instructor has been schooled or tested in any actual diving techniques that weren't introduced in the OW course. So, like I said...they do know their stuff as defined by the training standards. We know that any certified instructor should be able to do a demonstration quality job of clearing a mask on their knees but the only way to know whether or not they can dive is to test them yourself.

 

[The Chairman]

Back to bashing the agencies. You have yet to show how this death is a result of poor standards or the result of inadequate training.

 

[Walter]

Back to bashing the agencies. You have yet to show how this death is a result of poor standards or the result of inadequate training.

Two points. 1. There was no bashing. He gave examples to answer a question asked of him. 2. He has never said this death was the result of inadequate training.

 

[maj75]

I'll give several examples of what I mean.

The PADI OW course standards don't state any performance requirements for the tour portion of the dive. The student can bounce and crawl through it and meet the requirements of the standards.

The student is never asked to do any dive related tasks like...replace a mask, initiate air sharing or whatever...in a diving context...ie while off the bottom and diving. Everything is (or can be) done while kneeling.

But, look at the standards for AOW, rescue, DM or instructor training and testing. It's all the same and they never get around to the diving part. No place in that progression is a diver required to be taught or demonstrate good diving technique. In the AOW course, divers sit on the bottom below 60 ft and do a puzzle for time (deep diving means deep kneeling), they sit in the bottom and tie knots for their S&R dive, They bounce and crawl through their nav course and that meets standards. There aren't any performance requirements related to how the student is actually diving. DM and instructor candidates are tested on their ability to demonstrate skills while kneeling and supervise divers who are demonstrating skills while kneeling.

The training standards give us no reason to believe that an instructor has been schooled or tested in any actual diving techniques that weren't introduced in the OW course. So, like I said...they do know their stuff as defined by the training standards. We know that any certified instructor should be able to do a demonstration quality job of clearing a mask on their knees but the only way to know whether or not they can dive is to test them yourself.

As an instructor, wouldn't you be observing the student at all times during their testing? If a student "crawled" through their nav course, would you pass them? Shouldn't the instructor assess the ability of the student during all phases of the dive? I know that my instructor has failed plenty of AOW students who could not demonstrate basic dive skills.

Firefighters in Miami get extra pay if they get an AOW card and are available for S&R. I have been on dives with some (by no means all) of these guys who supposedly had OW cards and were trying to get AOW certs. On the boat, one put the reg on backwards and the BC upside down on the tank. Once in the water, the guy had a panic attack before he got to the mooring ball (at Molassas) and had to be towed back to the boat. Some (but by no means all) of these guys clearly could care less about diving, they are only doing it for the money. He did not get his AOW card. If the instructor could have revoked his OW, I think he would have.

As I tell my kids about school, it is your responsibility to learn the material, not your teachers. A lousy teacher is no excuse for not learning. You will be the only one who suffers if you don't.

 

[RiverRat]

As I tell my kids about school, it is your responsibility to learn the material, not your teachers.

True

A lousy teacher is no excuse for not learning. You will be the only one who suffers if you don't.

True..... But if the teacher is lousy then the student will have a hard time learning even if they have a real hunger for it. You don't know what you don't know. I learned a lot in my OW and AOW but there was also a lack of "HERE'S HOW YOU REALLY DIVE" info. I eventually sought out what I needed to learn but it proved to me what is lacking in the courses. BASIC DIVING SKILLS. Instructors are role models to students. They need to act like role models. That means showing good form. Good trim. Good balanced rig and at least trying to explain that info to the students and give it your best shot at triming them out and getting them squared away so you reduce stress and build confidence. I started my CESA on my back because that was the only way I could get "trim" and "neutral". I dunno, maybe they slammed me through because I didn't buy a stab jacket right away and wanted a BP/W. After AOW that's what I ended up buying and got myself trim. Then the lights went on and I started diving. I would never teach OW students the way I learned. Won't do it.

 

[RiverRat]

Huummm...didn't realize what forum I was in.
Got absorbed, didn't mean to get the thread off track.

 

[The Chairman]

Two points. 1. There was no bashing.

You say that because you agree with him.

2. He has never said this death was the result of inadequate training.

The implications are so OBVIOUS that there is no mistaking the underlying message here.

 

[Walter]

You say that because you agree with him.

If you disagree, pull out the standards and show us where he's wrong. If he's lying about the standards, I would agree it's bashing. Unfortunately, unless their standards have changed drastically since I last read them, he is 100% correct.

The implications are so OBVIOUS that there is no mistaking the underlying message here.

I don't see any such implication.

 

[SparticleBrane]

...I bet if she had better training, the chances of her panicking would have been much lower.
There. I said it.