instructor course review - did you know...

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I wonder what dive courses used to be like when the YMCA used to certify. I think that was the only agency that wasn't a private, for-profit business in North America. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any today. The UK has the BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club). I'm not sure if they're still a non-profit club or if they're out to make money now.
 
Hey, who misinformed the OP about the IDC course?
Why, after a short period of time, did I have more product knowledge, as a whole, than many instructors/DM's I would talk to in stores. If product selection/knowledge for the students benefit was part of their job wouldn't they be more informed of gear as a whole, rather than just the stuff their LDS sells?
Strikes me it's often for the LDS's benefit, not the students. Though not all instructors can be painted with the same brush.

I personally had a good PADI instructor that way - who also happened to own the LDS. He talked me out of many impulsive purchases and helped me develop a purchasing "schedule" that included some used as well as new gear.
 
As instructors we are afforded the opportunity to assist people in doing something fun safely. we are blessed with a profession to inspire new and exciting adventures for people. So during our instruction we inform anyone that wants to know about other opportunities to express them selves. you want to belittle that experience by whining and calling it sales then do not instruct.

the OP was misinformed on the IDC and should not have taken it. it is not a course to learn anything about diving it is a course to learn about teaching diving. If you do not wish to inspire new divers then do not do the IDC for any agency. As you said, you did it for you, that is the wrong focus for an instructor, it should be about the students.

If you want to expand your diving take, Wreck, Cave, Deco Procedures, ICE, or commercial diving.
sailnaked has it right.The AI course is not to make you a better diver,it is there to teach you how to teach and all involved in it.The IDC is the same.Both are designed to help you become successful in the business of diving ,not to make you a better diver.That should have been done in your ow-dm courses and on your own time thru experience.While teaching an AI course or staffing an IDC I have told a few to get their skills to demo quality on their own time.If they want me to help them with it then there is a cost to it.It is not something expected to be done at the AI or IDC course level. People get into being an instructor at times for the wrong reasons. A good reason is to make some money at it,not just enough to pay for your insurance/dues,and to produce people who enjoy diving safely.There is not alot of money to be made,but it certainly should be enough that you will not have trouble paying insurance/dues and have some left over so you can pay for some toys for yourself and still have some left over in your pocket.
 
I can see all the points about the merits of being an instructor who can sell and being focused on the student etc - in hindsight. For those that are pursuing the professional instructor path that is great. My negative review of the instructor course is still valid because it was marketed to me, a new diver with no aspirations of professional instruction. Everyone out there probably knows someone like me and perhaps those that were more savvy, avoided the sales pitch themselves. As long as padi markets to people like me they are doing us a disservice because they aren't making us better divers or giving us new information (or whatever other reason we signed up for). If they really want only serious people they shouldn't sell/push one course after another from open water straight through to instructor - they should determine if the student knows what they are getting into before pushing instructor. In my IDC, they told me to market the DM course immediately after rescue and the instructor course immediately after DM. The fact that selling further training is required by padi shows that they want my business in addition to those serious instructors. As I said, if they gave me a book with lots of colorful pictures and some instructor quality dive tips, I probably would have walked away happy - perhaps they could have even sold me on MSDT training - actually they did try. I think most non-professional divers, who haven't heard of this issue, would probably assume that an instructor course built your skills as a diver so that you are competent to be a role model and teach.
 
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[ long time active instructor here too.Selling does not mean unethical.Instructor there to inform and assist student in their endeavour to dive.
.How is it a conflict of interests? How do you know if there is a lack of product knowledge on my end? You are mistaken on that.Its up to the instructor to stay current on gear selections available to todays divers.
.Because the ski instructor is not thinking of their activity as a business.Only economic interest I have is to be successful in what I do so that I can keep on doing it and doing it well.
It is a clear conflict of interest: the instructors' responsibility to be completely honest and fully truthful to his or her students vs. the inswtructors' duty to sell as gear as possible but limited to that which the sponsoring LDS deals in. Bad, bad, juju. Stack on top of that the spiff of the week and other salesman incentives and the students' real needs oft take a backseat.
I have sat in on my share of boring classes.Students turn off after a while and do not hear/absorb what they are being told or shown.A good instuctor has to be able to MOTIVATE students to dive.Being in a boring 2 hour lecture in a classroom does not motivate.A good instructor should be able to complete a academic module in 45-60 minutes.Thats from introduction to summary along with going over knowledge reviews admin quiz,going over the quiz and answering any questions.
Our lecture periods are typically 50 minutes, but if one can't keep an audience completely spellbound for two hours with nothing more than a chalkboard, an interesting topic and a few cogent and relevant sea stories then I would not consider them a teacher.
Nope no false idol worship wanted.Just stating what a instructor wanting to be successful should do.
That's what you consider to be success, where I to find myself ibn your situation I'd feel like a complete and utter failure ... its those differences that make the world go round and my entire reasons for these posts is you assumption that, just because yours is the majority path, it is the only path.
Again there is nothing unethical about informing students of gear choices suitable for the type of diving they plan to get into.
It is when the selection you present is limited to the few brands that a given retailer carries or when it is influenced by kickbacks or on-hand inventory that gotta be moved rather than the students' actual needs.
I see you do sell if you get free travel,is that unethical on your part?are not universities hurting now for $$.Would it be more ethical on your part to pay your own way?
Rather clear that you know nothing about how science works.
I do not know about the dives site I can only dream about.Been there did that.
When was the last time you were diving in ice caves under a berg, or swimming with schools of Giant Bluefin Tuna or watching pengiuns flash by? Beats the hell out of playing nursemaid to a some once a year tropical divers ... at least in my book it does. You want to see wonder in the eyes of a student, take a newly endorsed scientist, who knows what's going on but has never been able to see it in person, out on a blue water dive in the middle of the Sargasso ... then you'll see some eyes pop.
I used the upcoming trip as a example of what should be done to be sucessful.
What you see as "successful," frankly, I'd see as being boring as hell. That does not mean that every one should do what I do, there is not enough demand, but there is room for folks with the interest, dedication and skill. It was what I decided I wanted to do when I was an undergraduate and I made it happen ... that's what I call "success."
I see instructors moan and groan that they do not teach enough.That there are not enough students to go around.I do not see them on the phone or computer contacting them to get classes going either.I do not see them offering to take them diving locally or on trips either.They sit back and expect classes/students to come to them without any effort put in to be sucessful.It does not work that way.
So we agree that you need to work at whatever it is that you want to be successful at.
I did the university/college course teaching thing-SUNY Maritime-,and to be honest to all that are currently doing that, I give you alot of credit,it was not worth my time.
Once again you don't know what I do. It sounds like you ran a recreational diving course as an outside contractor at an institution of higher learning ... like working for a dive shop with good facilities and no need to sell, but not at all like running a scientific diving safety program.
College students are kids with no supervision.They come to class late or not at all and expect you to make up what they missed at no cost to themselves.
Funny, I never had that problem. Could it have been something you said?:D
They place next to none or very little monetary investment in the activity themselves so they do not usually take it very seriously.Its not always because of lack of funds for I see many of them drive high end vehicles.
I have yet to see a large percentage of them actually dive after certification because of said lack of funds or other "interests " present themselves.
All my student show up the first day of class with a full set of gear except for tanks and regulators, and the majority have bought them by the end of the semester and they are almost all diving five years downstream. What is it that has made our experience in teaching diving at an institution of higher learning so very different?
As instructors we are afforded the opportunity to assist people in doing something fun safely. we are blessed with a profession to inspire new and exciting adventures for people. So during our instruction we inform anyone that wants to know about other opportunities to express them selves. you want to belittle that experience by whining and calling it sales then do not instruct.
If you think that singing the praises of ScubaPro or U.S.Divers, or whomever whilst skillfully denigrating the brands carried at the LDS down the street has anything at all to do with assisting, "people in doing something fun safely," then I think you're a little weird and somewhat missguided.
the OP was misinformed on the IDC and should not have taken it. it is not a course to learn anything about diving it is a course to learn about teaching diving.
Once upon a time it was, unfortunately now it isoften little more than learning to be an organ grinder, different tune, different species monkey, different agency, same crank handle.
If you do not wish to inspire new divers then do not do the IDC for any agency. As you said, you did it for you, that is the wrong focus for an instructor, it should be about the students.

If you want to expand your diving take, Wreck, Cave, Deco Procedures, ICE, or commercial diving.
Agreed, by the OP agrees too ... his point is that the IDC is marketed in a deceptive fashion, or at least was in his case.
I wonder what dive courses used to be like when the YMCA used to certify. I think that was the only agency that wasn't a private, for-profit business in North America. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any today. The UK has the BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club). I'm not sure if they're still a non-profit club or if they're out to make money now.
NAUI is also non-profit, as is LA County.
sailnaked has it right.The AI course is not to make you a better diver,it is there to teach you how to teach and all involved in it.The IDC is the same.Both are designed to help you become successful in the business of diving ,not to make you a better diver.That should have been done in your ow-dm courses and on your own time thru experience.While teaching an AI course or staffing an IDC I have told a few to get their skills to demo quality on their own time.If they want me to help them with it then there is a cost to it.It is not something expected to be done at the AI or IDC course level. People get into being an instructor at times for the wrong reasons. A good reason is to make some money at it,not just enough to pay for your insurance/dues,and to produce people who enjoy diving safely.There is not alot of money to be made,but it certainly should be enough that you will not have trouble paying insurance/dues and have some left over so you can pay for some toys for yourself and still have some left over in your pocket.
If the sine qua non for diving skill is the PADI (or most other agency) Assistant Instructor course it's no wonder that the industry has problems.
 
If you want to expand your diving take, Wreck, Cave, Deco Procedures, ICE, or commercial diving.

It's not likely that I'm going to pursue further training. Apparently I'm qualified to teach myself some of this stuff! :rofl3:

(Edit/correction - actually, I just saw the word 'Wreck' above and didn't read the rest because I immediately realized how ridiculous it would be for me to take a course that I am supposedly capable of teaching and how incredibly ridiculous I would feel to teach any diving not having sufficient experience in my own mind. I'm still laughing a bit though but I do realize that the poster's implication is wreck penetration, which like the others, I am not qualified to teach.)
 
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Am I mistaken or did the original poster actually sign up for this course himself?
 
Yes he did. He signed up, he said that he was disappointed, that it was not what he had expected (been lead to believe?) and he told us why.
 
Yep, just making sure. So someone who has no designs on being an instructor signs up for an instructor course, and is not happy about it. Hmmmm.

And that same someone has little desire to engage in any further development on a diver level, such as continuing education & specialty courses, that would directly help make him a better, more educated, and possibly safer diver. Hmmmmm

Just very interesting, how that path was chosen. Perhaps another sport might fit better with the decision making process.
 
Yep, just making sure. So someone who has no designs on being an instructor signs up for an instructor course, and is not happy about it. Hmmmm.

And that same someone has little desire to engage in any further development on a diver level, such as continuing education & specialty courses, that would directly help make him a better, more educated, and possibly safer diver. Hmmmmm

Just very interesting, how that path was chosen. Perhaps another sport might fit better with the decision making process.

I have to tell you, I'm way safer now that I'm actually diving regularly and not being pushed through training programs. I've been really nice and understanding about the views of LDS, dive professionals and padi so far and have only reiterated my justification for the negative review and warning to others. It's probably apparent that I'm not happy with padi - this experience has tainted padi and training in general for me - it shouldn't be a surprise to industry when the courses are pushed in the way I described. I still remember sitting in the class and thinking "what the F**k is this? Sales??". I absolutely take the blame for not doing the research but padi and the lds definitely wanted me there.
 

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