Input blown off by male classmates

[Fuzzmutton]

Have any of you ever felt that your imput/suggestions/directions were blown off by male fellow divers? I had a situation this weekend and I am still trying to figure out if it was because I am female or if my two fellow divers, being take charge kind of guys, would have been that way with anyone. Here's the scenario:

It's rescue diver training at a pond with poor viz and we are doing a search for a missing diver scenario. The 'missing diver' is an item we need to find and we have a 'patient' giving general directions as to where his 'missing buddy' was last seen by him. I am appointed divemaster and I'm to stay on shore and direct my two male classmates as they search. Now these are two great guys but both of them are the type of people that would in a normal situation try to take the lead or direct.

While still on shore we asked the patient for directions and he points to an area of the pond and says out there so many feet, so I send the guys out while I look for bubbles supposedly. They swim on the surface and descend in the area pointed out to do a search pattern. The fellow playing patient and I watch their bubbles and you could see that after a short while they were wandering way off course. I saw they were not even close to the spot any more so I recalled them by banging on something under water and sent them over to the area pointed out again. The same thing happens again. I know the one guy is good at navigation but he comes up describing poor viz and compass problems. When they fail to find it the second time they ask for further clarification as to where it was. I try to tell them but they want to hear it from the patient. He may be second guessing himself as to where he put the item by now because he has them come in further from the original direction (first it was past the buoys, now it is in front of them). So, they try again. No luck, it has now been about 20 minutes or more and they are getting upset. I can hear them talking to each other and, in effect, blaming my directions. The patient at this point (not being the patient any more but leading the exercise for the instructor) swims out to help them get lined up. They can't find it. I ask the instructer if at this point in real life if I would have them do the circle pattern used for recovery in poor viz if the professionals have not arrived and she said that was an option. I went over to the bank closest to where the guys were and suggested it and they said no they were not going to do that (who's leading this thing?) and instead they went out and back doing a hand sweep. No luck.

The guys quit at this point, it has been 30 minutes. The guy who placed the item went to look for it but came back without it not feeling well, so I asked if I could go search for the item for the instructor since the scenario had ended. I went out to the area I pointed the guys to and dropped down, I did an expanding square, came up to orient myself and saw I was still on target, so I dropped back down and doing another expanding square, I located the item. Ten minutes had went by. When I surfaced with item in hand I was pleased to see I was in the area they had been sent to search.

I felt when they could not find the item quickly they assumed it was my fault, my directions. They did not even listen to me in the end but told me flat out that they were going to do something different from what I suggested. Would they have done the same if another man was directing, I honestly don't know, but I FELT like I was being ignored because of being a woman.

I's like to hear if anyone else has had this problem and how you deal with it. I can't be effective as a rescue diver if I encounter this during an emergency and can't figure out a way to have my direction accepted.


Fuzz

 

[PerroneFord]

Apparently the instructor was also female. How did these gentlemen respond to her?

 

[Fuzzmutton]

One of the guys could not resist taking over conversations at times while she was instructing. She was very good at handling it because she knew, I guess, in the end SHE was the instructor and he needed to listen to her to pass the class.

 

[Walter]

I don't know if their poor behavior would have taken place had a man been directing the search or not. I really don't know why it matters why they were being stupid and refusing to conduct the search in the agreed upon fashion. The bottom line is they were not acting correctly and as a result should not be certified until they clean up their act. I'm not as concerned about motives as results. Had they followed your instructions as planned, they would have had good results. Since they didn't, they failed to preform adequately. They either learn from their mistake and clean up their act or don't pass the class.

 

[ronbeau]

Have any of you ever felt that your imput/suggestions/directions were blown off by male fellow divers? I had a situation this weekend and I am still trying to figure out if it was because I am female or if my two fellow divers, being take charge kind of guys, would have been that way with anyone. Here's the scenario:

It's rescue diver training at a pond with poor viz and we are doing a search for a missing diver scenario. The 'missing diver' is an item we need to find and we have a 'patient' giving general directions as to where his 'missing buddy' was last seen by him. I am appointed divemaster and I'm to stay on shore and direct my two male classmates as they search. Now these are two great guys but both of them are the type of people that would in a normal situation try to take the lead or direct.

While still on shore we asked the patient for directions and he points to an area of the pond and says out there so many feet, so I send the guys out while I look for bubbles supposedly. They swim on the surface and descend in the area pointed out to do a search pattern. The fellow playing patient and I watch their bubbles and you could see that after a short while they were wandering way off course. I saw they were not even close to the spot any more so I recalled them by banging on something under water and sent them over to the area pointed out again. The same thing happens again. I know the one guy is good at navigation but he comes up describing poor viz and compass problems. When they fail to find it the second time they ask for further clarification as to where it was. I try to tell them but they want to hear it from the patient. He may be second guessing himself as to where he put the item by now because he has them come in further from the original direction (first it was past the buoys, now it is in front of them). So, they try again. No luck, it has now been about 20 minutes or more and they are getting upset. I can hear them talking to each other and, in effect, blaming my directions. The patient at this point (not being the patient any more but leading the exercise for the instructor) swims out to help them get lined up. They can't find it. I ask the instructer if at this point in real life if I would have them do the circle pattern used for recovery in poor viz if the professionals have not arrived and she said that was an option. I went over to the bank closest to where the guys were and suggested it and they said no they were not going to do that (who's leading this thing?) and instead they went out and back doing a hand sweep. No luck.

The guys quit at this point, it has been 30 minutes. The guy who placed the item went to look for it but came back without it not feeling well, so I asked if I could go search for the item for the instructor since the scenario had ended. I went out to the area I pointed the guys to and dropped down, I did an expanding square, came up to orient myself and saw I was still on target, so I dropped back down and doing another expanding square, I located the item. Ten minutes had went by. When I surfaced with item in hand I was pleased to see I was in the area they had been sent to search.

I felt when they could not find the item quickly they assumed it was my fault, my directions. They did not even listen to me in the end but told me flat out that they were going to do something different from what I suggested. Would they have done the same if another man was directing, I honestly don't know, but I FELT like I was being ignored because of being a woman.

I's like to hear if anyone else has had this problem and how you deal with it. I can't be effective as a rescue diver if I encounter this during an emergency and can't figure out a way to have my direction accepted.


Fuzz

I agree with Walter's comment. There are some people (male & female) who think they know everything. These two guys proved that they did not know everything. Hopefully they learned from their experience.

I have worked for both male and female managers and executives.

I have worked for two female managers/executives in my 36 years in the IT profession and have the utmost respect for both of them. Of the male managers/executives I have worked for over that same period the respect level is at most 75/25.

How well the manager/executive manages professional people matters infinitely more to me than whether they are male or female.

Out of curiousity did the instructor give these guys the certification even though they failed the exercise?

 

[Fuzzmutton]

Out of curiousity did the instructor give these guys the certification even though they failed the exercise?

Yes.

I don't think she heard them refuse my suggestion on the last search pattern, I went over near where they were and spoke to them, she was about 60+ ft away. I guess she figured the viz had impeded the search and they had been given 30 minutes. I know if you are the only rescuers present you can search after 30 minutes, until your no decompression time runs out or you hit your exposure limit, but if professional search and rescue arrived by that time you would hand the search over to them.

Walter, I respect your opinion having read your posts before, what would you have done to regain control of the search? My first instinct would be to talk to them in the same fashion I talk to my kids when they are not listening, "HEY, you need to listen up! That was not a suggestion." I realize though, that with grown men committing mutinyirate6: it might not be the best route.


Fuzz

 

[Walter]

what would you have done to regain control of the search?

It may not have been possible. OTOH, you have to try.

While still on shore we asked the patient for directions and he points to an area of the pond and says out there so many feet, so I send the guys out while I look for bubbles supposedly. They swim on the surface and descend in the area pointed out to do a search pattern. The fellow playing patient and I watch their bubbles and you could see that after a short while they were wandering way off course. I saw they were not even close to the spot any more so I recalled them by banging on something under water and sent them over to the area pointed out again.

So far, you've done very well.

The same thing happens again. I know the one guy is good at navigation but he comes up describing poor viz and compass problems.

Calmly tell him that happens to everyone sometimes, but it's not important. What is important is searching the right area. We need to move the search back to the correct location.

When they fail to find it the second time they ask for further clarification as to where it was. I try to tell them but they want to hear it from the patient.

Here's where you lost control. You should have calmly and politely, but firmly informed the patient that he needs to communicate with you and only with you. You are in charge of the search and directions coming from any one else only confuses the issue.

I don't think she heard them refuse my suggestion on the last search pattern, I went over near where they were and spoke to them, she was about 60+ ft away. I guess she figured the viz had impeded the search and they had been given 30 minutes.

Talk to her, express your concerns. From there, it's her call. By not giving her all the information, you are helping folks get certified who may not have met all the requiirement of the class. Don't give her your opinion as to should they be certified or not, stick to the facts. It's her job to make the call about issuing a card now or requiring more work.

 

[Fuzzmutton]

Thanks Walter, very good points! I think you were right on the money about where I lost control, I should have reiterated that I was leading the search and you can only have one person lead or else it gets confusing.

At the time, I just thought that OK, we went through the scenario but did not find the missing diver. Sometimes that happens and you have to let the professional search and rescue take over if they have arrived at the scene. Since that was in the book, and even though it's something you don't want to happen if at all possible, I did see it as a possible end to the scenario. I told the instructor when they came back that at that point I would turn the search over and that's how we left it. At that point the "patient" went in to recover it as our professional S & R, ha ha.

 

[DiverLaura]

you're cute, you're young, you're female, you have under 2000 dives.

you have to be 100% assured in your position to have the desired effect. You HAVE to conduct yourself in a manner that _makes_ them look to you for guidance.

I had this "explained" to me the hard way, way back when in my NAUI IT course. I was ~19 (and looked all of 16) scrawny, female, etc... They were very very tough on me, even by the "old" standards because they understood what I was going to face as a young female instructor. I was in tears more than one night after lectures and such, frustrated, angry, etc... But they were right. Luckily with their guidance I was able to face my first openwater class with confidence, and teach a group that included a 40 something anesthesiologist, a couple of jack ass college boys, a husband/wife team from hell, a teenager and his dad.... All by themselves, each of those would have been an instructors nightmare. of course I also had the worlds best AI/DM who had about 25,000 dives under his belt and had been an AI for over a decade All he had to do was sit in the back of the class to "back me up" and after one "affirmation" of a question asked, no one said a thing

BUT, what I learned was I HAD to teach from a position of strength, EXACTLY my knowledge base. I could not 'fake it' or talk about anything I did not know with 100% accuracy. IF I did not know the answer, the best thing I could say was "I don't know the answer to that... how about we all look it up and discuss our findings at the start of the next class, that way we can all learn something".

IF you are going to assert yourself, you must be 100% sure, and if you ARE 100% sure YOURSELF, then they will listen to you, no matter what your age/gender/looks.

This holds true for many situations, your search pattern, my day at work, etc...

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Have any of you ever felt that your imput/suggestions/directions were blown off by male fellow divers? I had a situation this weekend and I am still trying to figure out if it was because I am female or if my two fellow divers, being take charge kind of guys, would have been that way with anyone.

Personally I wander in expecting to be obeyed when I'm supposed to be in charge, a lot of command is via body language. You have to temper that with the willingness to listen to suggestions and implement the good ideas giving credit to the originator. It's a bit of a dance but once you figure out how to do it only the worst "bossy cows" will challenge your authority rather than work with you.

Now these are two great guys but both of them are the type of people that would in a normal situation try to take the lead or direct.

While still on shore we asked the patient for directions and he points to an area of the pond and says out there so many feet, so I send the guys out while I look for bubbles supposedly. They swim on the surface and descend in the area pointed out to do a search pattern. The fellow playing patient and I watch their bubbles and you could see that after a short while they were wandering way off course. I saw they were not even close to the spot any more so I recalled them by banging on something under water and sent them over to the area pointed out again. The same thing happens again. I know the one guy is good at navigation but he comes up describing poor viz and compass problems.

Here is where you may have lost control. You saw them wander way off course and recalled them which was the correct move. Did you ask for their input on why they went off course at this point? It is very possible to have compass issues, we have a couple quarry's around here with areas that will screw with your compass. Sometimes we use them to get students to solve problems; sometimes we even tell the students they exist It's very frustrating when the compass isn't responding properly and that's a good time to switch to a non-compass search but unfortunately you won't know unless you ask when you aren't in the water. Asking for feedback after the first pass shows them you care about their problem and are taking action to solve it rather than letting them make the same error twice. That second navigation mishap makes them look incompetent (in their minds) where navigation is concerned and breeds discontent. Don't let them come up complaining because it changes their focus from following your lead to whining about it and recovering from the whine is difficult.

Ber :lilbunny: