Individual Rights, and other Myths

[Thalassamania]

It serves mine in that it is sufficiently rigorous to persuade OSHA to provide my "masters" with a dispensation from their rigorous and often inappropriate rules and regulations and permission to use those we have developed ourselves whose appropriateness and efficacy we have demonstrated for longer than recreational diving has existed. I understand how they might not "suit" your "masters'" goals, but I do think that the world would be a better place if your masters' goals returned to the alignment with my masters' goals that they once enjoyed.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Take it easy, guys....


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LOL ... I'm in agreement with Thal more than might be apparent. I just don't believe that we need to go "back to the future" in order to train people to dive responsibly.

And our goals are different. I'm not out to change the diving world ... just help create some reasonably well-trained recreational divers.

Fortunately, my "master" allows me to raise the "bar" as I see fit (within reason, of course) ... and I'm under no obligation to certify anyone I feel isn't ready to dive safely in our local conditions.

You don't need a Scripps course to do that ... but if I'm not mistaken, Thal helped write some of the training standards I do adhere to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Bob says that right: we are more in agreement than might be apparent. I just happen to have day to day experience with what going, "back to the future" can accomplish. I suspect that Bob (especially) might greatly enjoy that.

 

[Mossman]

Wow ... ain't you special ... :bored2:

I've done staged decompression solo dives and it never occurred to me that I might die. Ain't no big whoop if you've got the training, experience, and chops to plan and put it together properly.

What is this religious orthodoxy you keep bringing up? :blessing:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

1. Plan your dive.
2. Dive with a buddy.
3. Perform a buddy check prior to the dive.
4. Don't hold your breath underwater.
5. Don't dive deeper than 130 (or whatever) feet.
6. Stay within NDL limits using table or computer.
7. Ascend no faster than 60 (or whatever) ft./minute.
8. Perform 3-minute safety stop at 15 ft.
9. Be back on the boat with 500 psi in your tank.

I think #7 is the only one of the above "rules" that I adhere to and it's not because of religious orthodoxy, but because I'm afraid of getting bent. I've "broken" all the other "rules" plenty of times and haven't died once. Yet.

(For experienced divers doing easy recreational dives, #1 often isn't necessary unless the plan is as simple as "dive until the tank is near empty, then ascend". #2 and #3 aren't applicable to solo dives. #4 isn't applicable to photographers trying to maintain neutral buoyancy to get a difficult shot. #5? Come on. #6? I dive with a Suunto, it can hit NDC limits in the bathtub. #8 isn't a rule, it's a guideline. #9 can be a waste of expensive air time.)

 

[Mike Boswell]

Oh, I've broken the "rules" too, lots of times, but I don't boast about it on the internet, or recommend it to younger divers.

Most of the time when I broke the rules, it wasn't a problem. Sometimes, it was.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

1. Plan your dive.
2. Dive with a buddy.
3. Perform a buddy check prior to the dive.
4. Don't hold your breath underwater.
5. Don't dive deeper than 130 (or whatever) feet.
6. Stay within NDL limits using table or computer.
7. Ascend no faster than 60 (or whatever) ft./minute.
8. Perform 3-minute safety stop at 15 ft.
9. Be back on the boat with 500 psi in your tank.

I think #7 is the only one of the above "rules" that I adhere to and it's not because of religious orthodoxy, but because I'm afraid of getting bent. I've "broken" all the other "rules" plenty of times and haven't died once. Yet.

(For experienced divers doing easy recreational dives, #1 often isn't necessary unless the plan is as simple as "dive until the tank is near empty, then ascend". #2 and #3 aren't applicable to solo dives. #4 isn't applicable to photographers trying to maintain neutral buoyancy to get a difficult shot. #5? Come on. #6? I dive with a Suunto, it can hit NDC limits in the bathtub. #8 isn't a rule, it's a guideline. #9 can be a waste of expensive air time.)

Do you understand the origin and purpose of these "rules"?

Who do you think they are intended to apply to?

I've broken most of them too ... but I had by then accumulated enough knowledge and skill to know exactly how and under what circumstances I could do so without worrying about death or injury. In fact, death never enters my mind when I dive ... how to prepare for the dive and execute the goals of the dive safely takes up all my mental bandwidth.

You have over 500 dives ... it'd be silly to expect you to hold yourself to rules that were intended to help newly-trained divers keep from injuring themselves while they developed their skills and understanding. Diving isn't a set of rules ... it's a collection of skills and knowledge that are applied depending on circumstances and good judgment. The answer to almost every scuba diving question can correctly begin with the words "It depends ..."

Rules are only worthwhile if you understand why they exist and when to apply them to the circumstances of your particular dive. They're useful to help the new diver learn. As you develop your skills and knowledge, they will be replaced by concepts that help you make good decisions. That's the usual progression. People who get stuck on rules without developing the concepts that apply to them will never progress beyond the level of novice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mossman]

You have over 500 dives ... it'd be silly to expect you to hold yourself to rules that were intended to help newly-trained divers keep from injuring themselves while they developed their skills and understanding. Diving isn't a set of rules ... it's a collection of skills and knowledge that are applied depending on circumstances and good judgment. The answer to almost every scuba diving question can correctly begin with the words "It depends ..."

Which is exactly why diving "rules" should not be legislated. If one signs up to dive off a boat that has certain rules, that's one thing. It's a contractual agreement and you're free to not dive with a boat that enforces depth limits or mandates (and enforces) returning with a certain amount of remaining air. However, when the state makes the rules, it's no longer a matter of contractual agreement, and those arbitrary rules can and do impact divers who really do know better than the ones making the rules, whether through advanced training or experience or both.

Yes, I fully understand that these rules were meant for beginner divers. I was a very conservative beginner and had hundreds of dives before considering "breaking" any of them, and I'm astonished when I see new divers who flaunt them because they really have no idea how they can get in trouble. There's a point in one's diving experience, however, when one realizes that pushing the edge slightly doesn't lead to immediate death. That diving to 135' might not kill much faster than diving to 130', that holding one's breath can't hurt as long as one isn't ascending (and without surge), that it's OK to come back to the boat with only 400 psi if you can see the boat from your safety stop, that's it's OK to skip the safety stop if you've already been shallow for half the dive, that a few minutes of mandatory deco isn't a problem if you have sufficient air (and a buddy or some other redundancy, preferably) and decent buoyancy control, and it's not necessary to engage in serious dive planning for a tropical AL80 45 minute dive to 80 feet.

Hopefully no government will override my experience and tell me all I've learned is wrong.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Which is exactly why diving "rules" should not be legislated. If one signs up to dive off a boat that has certain rules, that's one thing. It's a contractual agreement and you're free to not dive with a boat that enforces depth limits or mandates (and enforces) returning with a certain amount of remaining air. However, when the state makes the rules, it's no longer a matter of contractual agreement, and those arbitrary rules can and do impact divers who really do know better than the ones making the rules, whether through advanced training or experience or both.

Yes, I fully understand that these rules were meant for beginner divers. I was a very conservative beginner and had hundreds of dives before considering "breaking" any of them, and I'm astonished when I see new divers who flaunt them because they really have no idea how they can get in trouble. There's a point in one's diving experience, however, when one realizes that pushing the edge slightly doesn't lead to immediate death. That diving to 135' might not kill much faster than diving to 130', that holding one's breath can't hurt as long as one isn't ascending (and without surge), that it's OK to come back to the boat with only 400 psi if you can see the boat from your safety stop, that's it's OK to skip the safety stop if you've already been shallow for half the dive, that a few minutes of mandatory deco isn't a problem if you have sufficient air (and a buddy or some other redundancy, preferably) and decent buoyancy control, and it's not necessary to engage in serious dive planning for a tropical AL80 45 minute dive to 80 feet.

Hopefully no government will override my experience and tell me all I've learned is wrong.

Many governments already do ... I have an upcoming trip to the Maldives and was astonished when I saw the government-mandated restrictions on placed diving. Won't stop me from going, and I'm sure I'll have a good time ... but under no circumstances would I want to see that level of government oversight applied to my local diving.

Many countries and locales where diving is a significant part of their economy treat all divers pretty much as though they just got out of OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike Boswell]

...

However, when the state makes the rules, it's no longer a matter of contractual agreement, and those arbitrary rules can and do impact divers who really do know better than the ones making the rules, whether through advanced training or experience or both.

There's a point in one's diving experience, however, when one realizes that pushing the edge slightly doesn't lead to immediate death....

.

"when the state makes the rules" - When is that?

"pushing the edge slightly doesn't lead to immediate death" - Who said it did?

 

[Mossman]

"when the state makes the rules" - When is that?

See above for NWGratefulDiver re the Maldives. When Grand Cayman says the depth limit is 110'. When Laguna Beach mandates wearing a snorkel. IIRC, one can't dive in France without a current medical, and one can't dive in Greece without a DM and the depth is limited to 30'. Any local government can impose any restrictions it wishes on divers and some of those restrictions impact the experienced diver who might know better.

"pushing the edge slightly doesn't lead to immediate death" - Who said it did?

Others have jokingly implied that even in this very thread. Agencies that promote the rules imply that the consequences for breaking the rules can lead to imminent death and in many cases they're right.

On the other hand, when the DM on my last Cozumel trip took us to a max depth of 137' and I ended up having to do 6 min of mandatory deco at 10', I was very happy that the rules didn't apply.