Incidents compounded ... you ever have one of these dives?

[DiverBuoy]

On the subject of weighting ... instructors might need to be prepared to drag a little extra weight around. So over the years I've grown accustomed to being a bit more negatively weighted. However, anytime I'm pleasure diving I'll reset to my proper weighting. It's a bit of a funny feeling that very first dive after the switchback.

At least a few times toward the end of a dive with less experienced divers I've sacrificed some of my weight to help out. On two occasions I sac'd a whole weight pouch. It's funny but I look at this as preparation for the possibility at some point that one of my integrated velcro weight pouches might snag on something and fall into the blue abyss. Sometime soon, I really do have to get SeaQuest to modify my rig with an update to their newer pouch design.

My personal comfort zone is about 8# to 12# dry and 14# to 22# wet. Whenever pleasure allows for it, I certainly prefer the lower end of both ranges, of course.

What are your thoughts?

 

[TSandM]

Oh, Charlie, now I feel really stupid. In this particular dive site, you have to swim out about thirty or forty feet to get to ten feet of depth . . . and I made that trip four or five times, because what my friend THOUGHT she needed ended up being EIGHT POUNDS short. Next time . . .

Of course, the most annoying part of that dive was that, while we were doing our fifteen minute underwater swim, somebody walked off with the mesh bag containing the rest of the weights that we hadn't used. A perfect ending to that particular comedy of errors.

 

[AXL72]

I somewhat disagre with Mike's post about making a rescue and making it uncomfortable. For the sake of debate, the post is absolutely acceptable and enjoyable. However, for all seriousness and lessons learned, the post may not be the safest way to go. I would be seriously worried about potentially causing a diver's death by performing a rescue without doing some other less traumatice actions first.

I think a better action would be to first get the unresponsive diver's attention by smacking him on the back of his lower leg. Make him turn around and give him the "OK" symbol face to face. If no response, then signal with a "thumbs-up" signal to surface and talk about whether he is ok and the proper response to dive signals. If that does not work to get the diver to the surface, then try the rescue if he seems to need rescuing.

However, once a rescue is determined to be needed, how would you deal with an uncontrolled ascent with his drysuit filled?

Anyways, food for thought. I know I will get an earful about the post being lighthearted and not to be taken seriously. Sorry in advance.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We were in about 15-18 feet of water when we encountered the dive light miscommunication. As I mentioned I'm to blame for not insisting on going remedial nightdiving 101. Especially with a new guy in the group. I made assumptions I should not have made, based on information from my bud. He told me about this guys experience in Laguna, and at this site, and about their experience diving together. Frankly, had this been anything but a wading pool dive, more complex in anyway I'd have insisted on remediation. I indicated a more rudementary ideal, decend together, once we get down, give the ok. This could certainly have been expanded on. Unfortunately, the real definition of assume came true. He certainly proved he knew one of the fundamental signals, by proving he could wave his light back and forth frantically to draw attention

Moving a light back and forth in a non-frantic way is "attention". Moving it back and forth franitcally is "EMERGENCY!".

The briefing rotation idea works out nicely if you've been out with someone at least 2 times. First time dives, I usually just assert myself. In this case I knew his level of training and experience, so it seemed appropriate. No one gave me any awkward impressions. I also was looking for his coping skills with each failure, he adjusted well. Only that "last straw" with the fin seemed to push him over the top.

The fewer times you've dives together the more of a hlep it is. The "leader" briefs the dive and every one else briefs it in turn to confirm their understanding and voice any questions, concerns or suggestions. If some one can rtepeat the plan back, then you know they got it.

In comment to your approach to no response on the ok signal. Personally, I think the "embarrasment method" of enforcing proper signalling works perhaps for students, but must fit the circumstances. A good diver, especially a well trained one, should not simply rely on a single signal while diving. That he perhaps saw my signal, and all the rest of his body language indicated everything was ok, he was breathing calmly, was off the bottom with properly established buoyancy, was interacting with the environment, staying with us, etc ... all were satisfactory. Also the ok signal in the light was properly responded to several times during the dive. So why 48 minutes into the dive a circle on the sand caused an immediate abort ... <sigh>

It has nothing to do with embarassing any one. The purpose for an ok signal is to find out if that diver is in fact ok. If they can't tell you that they are ok by returning the signal there is a VERY real possibility that something is not ok. If they just don't know how to return the signal, what would happen if you weren't ok and were flashing "EMERGENCY to a diver who was off in nerver never land?

Just because things were ok before, does not mean that they still are. If you're not going to pay attention and act on signals or the lack of them, why bother in the forst place?

 

[MikeFerrara]

On the subject of weighting ... instructors might need to be prepared to drag a little extra weight around. So over the years I've grown accustomed to being a bit more negatively weighted. However, anytime I'm pleasure diving I'll reset to my proper weighting. It's a bit of a funny feeling that very first dive after the switchback.

At least a few times toward the end of a dive with less experienced divers I've sacrificed some of my weight to help out. On two occasions I sac'd a whole weight pouch. It's funny but I look at this as preparation for the possibility at some point that one of my integrated velcro weight pouches might snag on something and fall into the blue abyss. Sometime soon, I really do have to get SeaQuest to modify my rig with an update to their newer pouch design.

My personal comfort zone is about 8# to 12# dry and 14# to 22# wet. Whenever pleasure allows for it, I certainly prefer the lower end of both ranges, of course.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that an instructor does not need to dive overweighted and that they set a bad example when they do. Especially since most of the overweighted instructors look like crap in the water. If you make certain the students are properly weighted before the dive then you won't have to give them any of your weight. If a mistake is made and it becomes apparant that the student is not properly weighted, the thing to do, IMO, is to start over with weight and trim checks NEAR the SURFACE. The instructor being properly weighted and trimmed, of course, can demonstrate again if needed but it shouldn't be needed because the students demonstrated a thorough understanding and ability to do it in the pool right?

 

[DiverBuoy]

I agree with the fundamental principle, disagree with the practical application. Being prepared is a good thing. I agree if being overly weighted you fail to set the proper in water example, you've failed. If a student observes you diving properly by all observable behaviors and hears your words of reinforcement to back what they have observed, the message will not be confused.

To say that no inexperienced diver who's claimed to be properly weighted, ever struggles with weighting issues is ignorant at best, and I'll certainly not accuse you of all people of making this claim. To be prepared to cope with change is very helpful.

I'll give a quick example, this one was a non instruction dive, I entered the water with a couple of inexperienced divers. Conditions as we entered the water were pristine to say the least. 30 minutes into the dive the wind, surf, and surge become nearly unbearable. As conditions worsened we all agreed to head in but along the bottom to avoid the choppy surface and avoid a ruff and long surface swim. The least experienced diver in the group, showed signs of anxiety fighting nature, being swept back and forth and started to have to swim down. I helped squeeze every last bit of air out of their bc, and encouraged them to relax and breath properly. Despite these efforts they struggled to stay down, likely it was the exertion and poor breathing method. I clipped one of my pouches to their cummerbund to help with the last few minutes of the exit swim. I remember the end of that dive quite well, because after the dive I got a kiss and hug for that one. On the beach I asked about the last time they did a weight check, just that weekend was the reply, end of dive, same tank and equipment, same weighting, fully deflated bc, normal breath, eye level. But recalling their struggle 2 pounds or 4 pounds more would not have helped.

 

[TSandM]

The instructor being properly weighted and trimmed, of course, can demonstrate again if needed but it shouldn't be needed because the students demonstrated a thorough understanding and ability to do it in the pool right?

Around here, much of the pool work is done in bathing or wetsuits, but the diving is generally done in dry suits. I did one "orientation" dive in a dry suit before my OW dives, but of course, I didn't wear anywhere near the undergarments I did for OW. Therefore, there was no way for anybody to know how much weight I was going to need for my OW dives, beyond a rough guideline.

As I played with various tanks and undergarments, I never knew exactly what I was going to need. At least one of our popular shore diving sites requires a significant surface swim to water deep enough to submerge -- and another is notorious for theft problems, so you cannot leave any extra gear on the shore and expect it to be there when you come back. NW Grateful Diver did more than one dive underweighted because he gave me some of his carefully calibrated weight when I couldn't descend. (I was very impressed at how well he handled that!)

So I guess I'm saying that, if you're going to dive with a student or novice diver who may not be sure of his/her weighting, it's a good idea either to have the ability to do an "ability to descend" check (because I'm not impressed with the accuracy of the floating-at-eye-level at the beginning of the dive checks) or have the dive buddy carrying a couple of pounds of extra weight to be used if needed. The logistical problems associated with not doing that are greater than the issues of being a couple pounds overweighted, at least to me.

 

[DiverBuoy]

The convenience of always being able to do a weight check properly, or at all is unrealistic. Folks change out, add, or remove dive equipment from their inventory, use tanks which may be different from the ones they own (such as on a boat), gain a few pounds over the holidays, rent equipment, change from fresh to salt water or visa versa, and as TSandM put it they may even be forced to do a weight check at the beginning of a dive with a full scuba cylinder and so on and so forth.

Weighting needs adjustments if you consider these circumstances and the fact that dive sites vary so dramatically. For example, there are some sites which require that you enter and decend in an area where a weight check isn't even possible, where there is no convenient ledge or an anchor chain or a swim step.

The idea that for every situation you can have your weight perfectly dialed-in is, to put it bluntly, ludicrous. What's the alternative? It's the practicality of being able to dive comfortably and safely on a "range" of weight and to be able to calculate a really close guestimate, sans a float at eye level weight check. In such cases it's much better to start a bit heavier, because you can shed weight, but gaining it is definitely harder, though we hear stories of divers using rocks (snicker). Within reason (I can't stress this enough) it's better to be a bit heavier if you have to choose between the two options. Being perfectly weighted is ideal, even if in some cases impractical. With experience diving in a variety of circumstances and with a variety of equipment, your calculations do get more accurate.

Which is why so many dive shops just use the starter formula of your physical weight divided by 10 + 10%, so a 200 pound person, would be 20 + 2 = 22 pounds.

Often folks who really argue against this point of reason have never really expanded their diving horizon beyond the local fishing hole, on the same equipment and they aren't familar with variance. But the practical situation is being prepared to handle weighting yourself sometimes without a weight check.

 

[Willie]

Within reason (I can't stress this enough) it's better to be a bit heavier if you have to choose between the two options. Being perfectly weighted is ideal, even if in some cases impractical. With experience diving in a variety of circumstances and with a variety of equipment, your calculations do get more accurate.

A few comments from a new diver.

The most stressful dive I have had to date was one in which I was underweighted. I didnt know it at the time because I was too new to know any different. Those advising me assured me I had more than enough weight for someone my size. I made two shore dives to 29', with the same setup. I was sure any problem I was having had to do with my infant skills or lack there of. It was very stressful and I had to work harder and harder as the dive progressed. I cant say I enjoyed either dive.

The next day I made my first boat dive in salt water. I used the amount of weight that was recommended but was having problems descending. The DM came over and attached another 4 lbs to my tank strap and for the next 14 dives I used the same setup. It was amazing the realization that I actually had complete control over my bouyancy.

I had done a lot of reading and some inquiring on this forum before this first trip in sw as to how to accurately evaluate the amount of weight. I had learned the eye-level method in training. I found that for me being able to effortlessly maintain my depth at the safety stop was a far better indicator of whether I was properly weighted.

I suspect that as my skills and confidence improve I will loose some weight, but at this point even a two pound reduction means struggling to control bouyancy instead of almost effortless diving.

Willie

 

[DiverBuoy]

Your early experiences are not atypical at all, as I'm sure looking back you've become aware.

What we call fine tune control (breathing) is often under-appreciated, perhaps because using the term "fine tune" makes people feel like it has little significant effect on buoyancy. That's false. A OW student or inexperienced diver who has perfectly dialed in their weight check may still struggle significantly with their buoyancy due to poor breathing techniques, improperly or incompletely dumping air from their compensators, poor trim, old/disrepaired/improperly fitting/or poor quality equipment and other factors.

Adding weight is not a substitute for poor technique, lack of practice, or avoiding a real weight check for equipment you own and have dialed in, along with periodic rechecks for the reasons I mentioned earlier. But having a little extra weight on you when you are unsure, or having problems which you are analyzing and in the process of addressing is certainly helpful.