Incident During OW Training- What do you do?
- Thread starter battles2a5
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Christi:
another NAUI Course Director (I'm not sure if he is active now) also chimed in here... he was teaching instructors for NAUI at least 20 years before I was even an instructor, his comment was pretty clear as well, NAUI has never done CESA from 60 feet...
OP
Cerich, Christi- this WAS a NAUI course. I clarified this in a subsequent post. As for removing the reg, I was just doing what I was instructed underwater. Again, not making any claims as to the "correct" way to do things, just relaying what happened. The more I think about this and the more feedback I get from this board the more I realize what a bad situation this was.
As for swimming to him, he was about 15ft. away from me. The first time I gave him the OOA sign he just shrugged like "What?" so I bolted to him.
As for swimming to him, he was about 15ft. away from me. The first time I gave him the OOA sign he just shrugged like "What?" so I bolted to him.
battles2a5:
feel like sending me a PM with the instructors name? This whole thing is crazy and it's only a matter of time until whoever it is hurts a student.
If you were removing and replacing a BC as part of the open water dive it was not a PADI instructor. PADI does not do a remove and replace as part of the open water dive. If it was part of the confined water portion of the class you were too deep.
Tom, I think it was ascertained on page 2 or 3 that the OP's OW cert is through NAUI, not PADI. I believe he started out as PADI and switched to NAUI in Costa Rica.
OP
Cerich- sent you a PM.
battles2a5:
Yes, I understood it was a NAUI Instructor/course as I indicated in my post. I also realize you were only doing what you were taught, so I wan't blaming you...I actually commend you for handling everything so well. I hope that cerich can help you get this taken care of appropriately. Congrats on your certification and keep learning and diving
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Whoa
made that post last week and didnt think much of it, and didnt return to the thread. I didnt realize it would be such a source of contention!!
First let me preface this by saying that what I think is a good idea for a CESA doesnt mean that I would perform it that way, were I an instructor, which I am not. Standards like this are for the safety of the student and I would never go outside of themthey would be followed to the letter. However, I generally feel that even though we are not training military or guerilla-style divers, as one person posted, I believe that being prepared is generally a good thing. Looking through the accidents and incidents forum is good enough reason for that, with many posts on peoples first OOA situation. Even better, looking back through DAN accident reports is enough to make me want to jump back in the pool and review a few essential skills.
About doing a CESA: even IF one were performed like I described (45fsw, LP hose disconnected, air off), and the student could not complete it, the instructor MUST be with the student during the entire ascentto prevent breath-holding and in case the student has difficulty. While NAUI standards state that it must be performed from 15fsw, I think that most people here could probably agree that if one were to run out of air it would probably (but not definitely) be at a deeper depth than 15fsw. Even if you did a CESA in a class from 45fsw with your air off, that doesnt mean that I advocated breathing down your regs after turning the air offthat would at least give the student a quick source of air should they need it. If a student cant complete a CESA from 45fsw with even multiple possible breaths off of a regulator then I believe that perhaps they should be in better shape.
Remember that for a diver to have to do a CESA there must be a LONG string of events that have gone wrongnot paying attention to your air, possible equipment malfunction, losing your buddy it should always be a last resort option.
In my OW class we practiced CESAs in the pool, specifically going across the pool from the diving well to the shallow end. The diving well is ~12-13ft deep, and its a 25-yard pool. So the distance that this is performed is ~75ft. The students are monitored the entire distance of the pool for breath holding. Some students cant make it, some can, but it isnt for any kind of skill check-off or requirement, its specifically just to show them what its like. CESAs are also practiced a little more like how they are done in on the OW training dives, going up with the instructor from the bottom.
Personally I believe that the main issue in any OW class is diver safety, not only in the class but also later on when the students are diving on their own. I just feel that doing a CESA from 15fsw isnt really the best way to show someone what a true CESA would feel like.
To Christiyes Im 20 years old; glad you can read my profile. My rescue instructor has been teaching for ~40 years and is also a NAUI course director and I believe his instructor number is in the 3000sthat would be where I got the information about 60fsw CESAs from. Oh, and I dont particularly appreciate the attitude that being 20-years old counts me out. Everyone has something to add. No hard feelings.
Just to be sure about what I said earlier I emailed my rescue instructor several minutes ago to clarify his original comment; perhaps I misheard him. I specifically asked for dates and (if possible) if he would be able to get me the text. I will be happy to post the results whenever he returns my email.
In my OW class we followed current NAUI standards to the letter for our OW training dives, so please dont think that we were doing anything beyond them. My instructor is almost fanatical about following standards and keeping his students safe, so like I said, we follow them (in cases like this where they cant be superceded by something more) to the letter. For other cases, ie classroom time, pool time, repetition of skillswe go way beyond.
Just to be perfectly clear so that nothing I just said could be misconstrued, here is a disclaimer:
I am not instructor from any agency.
Any statements that didnt deal specifically with official standards are my own personal opinion and should be taken as such.
If I WERE an instructor I would always follow such standards to the letter, end of discussion. Instructors who blatantly disregard such standards, IMHO, have no business teaching.
First let me preface this by saying that what I think is a good idea for a CESA doesnt mean that I would perform it that way, were I an instructor, which I am not. Standards like this are for the safety of the student and I would never go outside of themthey would be followed to the letter. However, I generally feel that even though we are not training military or guerilla-style divers, as one person posted, I believe that being prepared is generally a good thing. Looking through the accidents and incidents forum is good enough reason for that, with many posts on peoples first OOA situation. Even better, looking back through DAN accident reports is enough to make me want to jump back in the pool and review a few essential skills.
About doing a CESA: even IF one were performed like I described (45fsw, LP hose disconnected, air off), and the student could not complete it, the instructor MUST be with the student during the entire ascentto prevent breath-holding and in case the student has difficulty. While NAUI standards state that it must be performed from 15fsw, I think that most people here could probably agree that if one were to run out of air it would probably (but not definitely) be at a deeper depth than 15fsw. Even if you did a CESA in a class from 45fsw with your air off, that doesnt mean that I advocated breathing down your regs after turning the air offthat would at least give the student a quick source of air should they need it. If a student cant complete a CESA from 45fsw with even multiple possible breaths off of a regulator then I believe that perhaps they should be in better shape.
Remember that for a diver to have to do a CESA there must be a LONG string of events that have gone wrongnot paying attention to your air, possible equipment malfunction, losing your buddy it should always be a last resort option.
In my OW class we practiced CESAs in the pool, specifically going across the pool from the diving well to the shallow end. The diving well is ~12-13ft deep, and its a 25-yard pool. So the distance that this is performed is ~75ft. The students are monitored the entire distance of the pool for breath holding. Some students cant make it, some can, but it isnt for any kind of skill check-off or requirement, its specifically just to show them what its like. CESAs are also practiced a little more like how they are done in on the OW training dives, going up with the instructor from the bottom.
Personally I believe that the main issue in any OW class is diver safety, not only in the class but also later on when the students are diving on their own. I just feel that doing a CESA from 15fsw isnt really the best way to show someone what a true CESA would feel like.
To Christiyes Im 20 years old; glad you can read my profile. My rescue instructor has been teaching for ~40 years and is also a NAUI course director and I believe his instructor number is in the 3000sthat would be where I got the information about 60fsw CESAs from. Oh, and I dont particularly appreciate the attitude that being 20-years old counts me out. Everyone has something to add. No hard feelings.
Just to be sure about what I said earlier I emailed my rescue instructor several minutes ago to clarify his original comment; perhaps I misheard him. I specifically asked for dates and (if possible) if he would be able to get me the text. I will be happy to post the results whenever he returns my email.
In my OW class we followed current NAUI standards to the letter for our OW training dives, so please dont think that we were doing anything beyond them. My instructor is almost fanatical about following standards and keeping his students safe, so like I said, we follow them (in cases like this where they cant be superceded by something more) to the letter. For other cases, ie classroom time, pool time, repetition of skillswe go way beyond.
Just to be perfectly clear so that nothing I just said could be misconstrued, here is a disclaimer:
I am not instructor from any agency.
Any statements that didnt deal specifically with official standards are my own personal opinion and should be taken as such.
If I WERE an instructor I would always follow such standards to the letter, end of discussion. Instructors who blatantly disregard such standards, IMHO, have no business teaching.
battles2a5:
You seem to have been unlucky - assuming that your instructor and course were PADI - you should certainly express concerns to PADI HQ. Look up contact details on the PADI website. But, before you do, make quite sure, by checking your OW manual, that you did have gaps in your training.
PADI - and all of us who teach under the Organisation's banner - take quality control very seriously. After all, we have to trust the certifications presented to us - and uniformity and consistency of training are critical.
Your experience sounds atypical, but it deserves examination.
The fact that you were removing your regulator during a BC removal and replacement is unusual - and that the instructor didn't immediately respond with air when you were clearly in distress - seems to bear out your concerns.
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