In search of octo holder that actually works

[MichaelMc]

Clarification statement on Alternative Supply training and going diving - British Sub-Aqua Club

Rec

d. It is recommended by BSAC that divers who use a life supporting technique, eg. Primary Donate, in which they have not been formally trained should seek and obtain a recognised qualification in its application. Insurers and the courts may seek evidence of competency in the event of proceedings or a claim following an incident.

Why does not a similar requirement exist with respect to secondary donate? Or better stated, why is the requirement not "It is recommended by BSAC that divers who use a life supporting technique, whether Primary or Secondary Donate, in which they have not been formally trained should seek ..."

Or why, having authorized teaching secondary donate and picked it as the default instruction, do they not allow teaching primary donate in the core as an option?

 

[Edward3c]

Why does not a similar requirement exist with respect to secondary donate? Or better stated, why is the requirement not "It is recommended by BSAC that divers who use a life supporting technique, whether Primary or Secondary Donate, in which they have not been formally trained should seek ..."

Or why, having authorized teaching secondary donate and picked it as the default instruction, do they not allow teaching primary donate in the core as an option?

To keep things simple and maintain consistency across all core courses.

 

[MichaelMc]

To keep things simple and maintain consistency across all core courses.

Ok, I read the linked 7 page 2010 document, which is well worth a read for its analysis. From it, BSAC wants one standard of sharing that covers beginners through rebreathers. They call on those holding dive leader and above to have role model behavior. They have some discussion of the risks of snatching from an inexperienced dive’s mouth. And the legal risks in teaching a technique, primary donate, that in panic devolves to snatching from the mouth of some random person. Who by implication might expect at worst secondary snatch.

They do say:
“divers holding recognized qualifications utilizing techniques that differ from the BSAC Diver Training Program may dive on branch, regional or expedition dives provided they meet their duty of care by fully and clearly explaining to their buddy what the particular technique entails.” <bold theirs> With some language about that explaining not just be a brief mention of how it works.

This reads as if the only way, in BSAC, to dive primary donate, or to bungie stow a secondary, is with external recognized training. Which seems a short list. And to live as a official and social deviant always on guard against introducing you deviance to others. So from all that, does everyone in BSAC dive secondary donate? As the advanced dives are expected to demonstrate role model behavior of a standard that can span beginner through rebreather?

Of course in the technical section they list the risks of secondary snatching a random regulator from a technical diver. Which could suggest not diving such rigs near non tech trained divers that could go OOA.

(Edit: Deleted quoting their admonition against any divers introducing alternate air methods no
principal training agencies recommend.)

 

[Diving Dubai]

The more stuff about BSAC I read here, the more reasonable they look. I'm sure there must be a flip side...

Local club level internal politics ......

 

[tbone1004]

BSAC does not forbid primary donate. We just don't authorise it as part of our core training. Divers are permitted to use a primary donate configuration, providing they've received certified training.

which is forbidding it as part of the training which was the subject of my original post that I didn't think needed repeating. BSAC instructors are forbidden from teaching primary donate as part of their training, is that an incorrect statement?
Whether divers are allowed to use it after training or not was never part of the discussion.

 

[Stoo]

I just want something cheap that works for the time being.

You can buy a yard of bungie at any outdoor store for about $0.35. A couple of double hitches and your done. (Well, melt the ends too.)

Cheap and nothing better for about 7 reasons.

 

[HantsDiver]

which is forbidding it as part of the training which was the subject of my original post that I didn't think needed repeating. BSAC instructors are forbidden from teaching primary donate as part of their training, is that an incorrect statement?
Whether divers are allowed to use it after training or not was never part of the discussion.

Yes it is incorrect.

 

[MichaelMc]

Yes it is incorrect.

Is this a change from the 2010 document above?

Which seems to make it difficult to dive that way, and on teaching says
"It is important that instructors teach to the current syllabus only and, where instructors have personal preferences for other techniques, they should not introduce them into the BSAC Diver Training syllabus without written approval of the BSAC National Diving Officer"
and
"Ocean Diver – Basic Skills, states:
“teach for the more real situation of the recipient taking the donor's AS from its stowage”
"

 

[Edward3c]

which is forbidding it as part of the training which was the subject of my original post that I didn't think needed repeating. BSAC instructors are forbidden from teaching primary donate as part of their training, is that an incorrect statement?
Whether divers are allowed to use it after training or not was never part of the discussion.

Your correct, primary donate should not be taught as part of core training.

 

[HantsDiver]

Is this a change from the 2010 document above?

Which seems to make it difficult to dive that way, and on teaching says
"It is important that instructors teach to the current syllabus only and, where instructors have personal preferences for other techniques, they should not introduce them into the BSAC Diver Training syllabus without written approval of the BSAC National Diving Officer"
and
"Ocean Diver – Basic Skills, states:
“teach for the more real situation of the recipient taking the donor's AS from its stowage”
"

Honestly, I don't know. I have no love for BSAC generally but I do know that it can be taught. This guy is well respected as an instructor for a few agencies: rectotec: December 2016

One thing about bsac is that they are not that good on letting people know what is going on. And they don't like admitting their mistakes - so it's not surprising to me that they have not publically announced this.