I'm challenged with: Deep Yoga-Style 'Diaphragm' breathing vs Buoyancy Control.

[scubafanatic]

Sounds to me like you are right on the edge of carbon dioxide buildup, thus the periodic need for a deep breath.
Exhale, no prob. But a sharp inhale is a signal to your bod that something is threatening you. (look up the autonomic/parasympathetic nervous system if you want to go nuts with this like I did in the past.)

To the OP, I thought breathing was some Eastern secret to low gas consumption, but I now believe that efficient dive skills will beat the pants off any form of breath control. Just breathe.

...and I was hoping to have a legit reason to watch some old David Carradine/Kung Fu episodes.

 

[scubafanatic]

I've held off posting, as most of the suggestions have been on point.

Medically speaking, almost everything has been covered well. But let's look at what the determinants are of minimizing your RMV.

Decreased Exercise/CO2 production - covered
Trim - covered
Dead space ventilation - hinted at, but let's talk about it more.

Your mouth, throat, trachea and brochii play no role in gas exchange. Your second stage adds a touch more dead space that makes it worse.
Now, getting your RMV divided into just two breaths per minute is indeed a very effective way to minimize dead space ventilation, but at already-described costs to buoyancy, especially in confined spaces. And possible CO2 retention has been mentioned several times.
Breathing technique is more important, and shallow breaths with a second stage in your mouth are the wrong approach, because they merely exchange a larger fraction of your breath that is not coming from deep in the alveoli, but rather just exchanging back and forth in the "dead space". Worse, that dead space gas acquires CO2 by diffusion from adjacent molecules and traps oxygen that should be going all the way down to your alveoli.

So, the primary things that matter are to dump as much CO2 as you can by a full exhalation, and minimize the fraction of your breath wasted as dead space (fixed size, maybe 150-250cc) by using a full breath (1000-2000cc), instead of a shallow breath (400-600cc).

Lying here asleep, the average 70kg guy's RMV is about 0.14CFM (4000 cc/min)
Mathematically, if your RMV is an excellent 0.4CFM, you can see already that there's a lot extra going on: exercise/CO2 production and exchanging dead space biggest among them. With that wasted ventilation, it makes sense to do it as little of it as possible. But the difference in dead space ventilation between 4 big breaths/min and 12 somewhat smaller bpm is just not the biggest piece of your RMV.
Exercise production of CO2, and getting rid of it, is bigger. And you can't decrease your RMV by breathing less (CO2 retention).

So my 2 cents?
Go slow, go flat, breathe deeply as often as you need to, and enjoy the dive.

Diving Doc

....also probably wouldn't hurt if I had a D400 either, huh ?

 

[scubafanatic]

This is exactly what I do. Works for me too. I usually go for that big breath when I need to float over that big coral head looming ahead.

I know most seasoned divers do the same, it becomes an automatic reflex to anticipate ahead for buoyancy changes by altering lung volume.

 

[lowviz]

...and I was hoping to have a legit reason to watch some old David Carradine/Kung Fu episodes.

No, NO! You misunderstand.

Go for it. We learn amazing tangential stuff when doing the work to learn it for oneself.

We aren't here yet:

 

[g1138]

I was quite amazed at how I could easily only need breathe 2 times per minute! I developed a cycle of inhaling for 10 seconds (doing 4-5 inhale air sips) then exhaling fully for 15-20 seconds. I discovered each breath cycle lasted 25-30 seconds, which drastically reduced my air consumption!
~
Any thoughts or observations ?

Thanks in advance!

This is skip breathing. Consciously altering your breathing with the priority to conserve air. That is a do not do in diving.
There's a good chance to accumulate CO2 and hog space for O2 transfer especially under exertion if you keep the hyperfocus on maintaining this breathing cycle. This is also exacerbated by depth: increased pressure - increased threshold to hold more partial pressure of gases in your body.

We do alter our breathing to control buoyancy, but the BC takes the primary function so our lungs can just do small increments or trimming adjustments. That is not going to affect O2 & CO2 washout from our body like your skip breathing will.

Your body will dictate what your breathing needs to be to properly vent CO2. You can alter that consciously even to the point till you pass out and your automated systems take over again, which underwater means you drop your reg and drown.

Don't do it; since you're already posing a history of hyperfocusing on it, I would advice overcorrecting and forget about it entirely for the next couple dive trips.

 

[seeker242]

I've been doing yoga/meditation for about 20 years and find that actual "deep yoga breathing" does not work so well in scuba. It's too deep and too slow. And if you have to exert yourself at all, it will just give you a headache or make you dizzy. Not worth it.

 

[scubafanatic]

This is skip breathing. Consciously altering your breathing with the priority to conserve air. That is a do not do in diving.
There's a good chance to accumulate CO2 and hog space for O2 transfer especially under exertion if you keep the hyperfocus on maintaining this breathing cycle. This is also exacerbated by depth: increased pressure - increased threshold to hold more partial pressure of gases in your body.

We do alter our breathing to control buoyancy, but the BC takes the primary function so our lungs can just do small increments or trimming adjustments. That is not going to affect O2 & CO2 washout from our body like your skip breathing will.

Your body will dictate what your breathing needs to be to properly vent CO2. You can alter that consciously even to the point till you pass out and your automated systems take over again, which underwater means you drop your reg and drown.

Don't do it; since you're already posing a history of hyperfocusing on it, I would advice overcorrecting and forget about it entirely for the next couple dive trips.

But doesn't deep breathing = quality breathing ? Doing a better job of flushing out CO2 is a good thing, isn't it ? Maybe you mean if I somehow 'over flush out' the CO2, I'll accidentally deplete my O2 and pass out before the CO2 builds back up again and does it's role in reminding me to breathe ? Isn't there some sort of happy median I can strike ?

 

[scubafanatic]

I've been doing yoga/meditation for about 20 years and find that actual "deep yoga breathing" does not work so well in scuba. It's too deep and too slow. And if you have to exert yourself at all, it will just give you a headache or make you dizzy. Not worth it.

That's what I also noticed in the pool, it worked resting on the bottom but more difficult on the move. I'll calibrate the technique to fit the circumstances and try to find a happy median.

For what it's worth, I had zero issues with either headache or dizziness, at least in the pool.

 

[g1138]

But doesn't deep breathing = quality breathing ? Doing a better job of flushing out CO2 is a good thing, isn't it ? Maybe you mean if I somehow 'over flush out' the CO2, I'll accidentally deplete my O2 and pass out before the CO2 builds back up again and does it's role in reminding me to breathe ? Isn't there some sort of happy median I can strike ?

No, that's not what I meant.

We don't exchange gas between the avleoli and blood that effectively that slow deep breaths are the answer to every mental stimulation/active situation you put your body into.
Also, to just throw this out there: you don't do extreme slow deep breaths when you do side crane in yoga. Warrior pose you do. Different poses, different breathing patterns, still yoga.

Same applies to scuba; you shouldn't go with an extreme low rate of ventilation if you're going to be active. Passive safety stop, yeah go all in; but assuming there no: current, you're launching an SMB, the anchor line is jumping 5ft up/down because of swell and negative diver hanging from it, omg dolphins! etc etc.

So in the pool it felt right probably because you weren't doing anything that increased your CO2 production/O2 depletion past your baseline passive relaxed state. You ARE going to go past that baseline....majority of the dive. Just by diving, monitoring, and enjoying yourself.

Try doing something active but mundane in your house for 10minutes, breathing 20 times only; your 2 breaths per minute.
20 breaths.....in 10 minutes; that's hard IMO.

Pet your dog, write a letter, pour coffee, tie and untie shoes, walk up/down the stairs gently. You will probably find that after those 10 minutes when you stop forcing your breathing cycle that your breathing increases back to normal or even faster than normal for a short while.

I not suggesting you to scrap your concept, but bring it back a bit and be a little more fluid for changing your breathing rate based on your body's need in the situation. We can override our natural automated response and have our conscious take over which can get us into trouble.

 

[scubafanatic]

No, that's not what I meant.

We don't exchange gas between the avleoli and blood that effectively that slow deep breaths are the answer to every mental stimulation/active situation you put your body into.
Also, to just throw this out there: you don't do extreme slow deep breaths when you do side crane in yoga. Warrior pose you do. Different poses, different breathing patterns, still yoga.

Same applies to scuba; you shouldn't go with an extreme low rate of ventilation if you're going to be active. Passive safety stop, yeah go all in; but assuming there no: current, you're launching an SMB, the anchor line is jumping 5ft up/down because of swell and negative diver hanging from it, omg dolphins! etc etc.

So in the pool it felt right probably because you weren't doing anything that increased your CO2 production/O2 depletion past your baseline passive relaxed state. You ARE going to go past that baseline....majority of the dive. Just by diving, monitoring, and enjoying yourself.

Try doing something active but mundane in your house for 10minutes, breathing 20 times only; your 2 breaths per minute.
20 breaths.....in 10 minutes; that's hard IMO.

Pet your dog, write a letter, pour coffee, tie and untie shoes, walk up/down the stairs gently. You will probably find that after those 10 minutes when you stop forcing your breathing cycle that your breathing increases back to normal or even faster than normal for a short while.

I not suggesting you to scrap your concept, but bring it back a bit and be a little more fluid for changing your breathing rate based on your body's need in the situation. We can override our natural automated response and have our conscious take over which can get us into trouble.

Yes, I understood the 2 breaths/min pool event was a bit artificial and won't apply towards more active exertion phases of my dives, but only for pretty passive dive phases/circumstances. I actually had no problems sustaining 2 breaths/min for long intervals in the pool under low exertion, gently swimming orbits at the bottom of the deep end, wasn't turning purple or otherwise in any distress. Active swimming, especially into current, for example, would of course be a case for 'being more fluid' as you suggest, and was my plan all along, everything in moderation, as they say. The pool success inspired me to try to push it a bit further than I have previously on my upcoming trip, bearing in mind the assorted words of caution kind posters have already mentioned.