If you were to design your own OW course, how would it go?

[TMHeimer]

I would agree that most students don't have a clue what they'd like to pursue in diving past the basic OW course. Heck, I didn't know what a PADI was. If I were to increase the OW course, it would be mostly to include rescue skills. Looking back, I THINK I would've taken such a course and paid more for it for safety reasons. Of course, someone would've had to explain what the rescue skills can do for you.
If the extended course included AOW dives, like NAV, Night, even Nitrox, I think I'd have chosen the cheaper quickie OW course. I actually had no idea there were certifications beyond OW, and assume I was not alone. I didn't even know what OW meant.

 

[boulderjohn]

Im not trying to be rude but please re read my post. I did not imply and/or state some of the sentences you mentioned. I never said they have terrible buoyancy and they become perfect instantly. I said they build up their skill over time as we all have done (I’m still a long way off), you can’t despise the OW course completely because divers just after completing 4 dives come out and their buoyancy is questionable and trim is off.

Your statement here still implies that a diver's buoyancy is either on or off.

Several years ago a couple friends and I did a dive in Akumal. There the reef is so close the dives are all 1-tank. The DM we had for our first dive was one we had not seen previously. When the dive was over, he said he had noticed that the 3 of us were the only divers signed up for the next dive, and he wondered if he could take us to a more challenging site than the ones they normally do. We agreed.

When we started gearing up, though, we saw that another couple had joined the dive. When we got to the dive site, they struggled with their buoyancy. The DM gave the wife a buoyancy lesson in the sand for the first 5 minutes of the dive. We started to dive the site, a beautiful one with labyrinthine passages through the coral, but it was obvious that the other couple were not good enough to handle it, so we just floated around over it all.

When we got back to shore, the DM apologized. He said that the couple who joined us only had about 25 dives, and their buoyancy was just not good enough. He said they just didn't have the vast experience we obviously did. I pointed to my two friends and told him that I had just certified them the day before. He had witnessed their first two dives as certified divers.

No, we do not expect perfect buoyancy from new divers. I don't expect that I will ever reach perfection myself. On the other hand, it is possible for brand new divers to come out of an OW class looking like experienced divers, and it doesn't take any more time and effort to do it. All it takes is a different approach.

And this is NOT an old time diver talking about how great things were in the past. It was the old instructional methodology that did not focus on buoyancy. It is the new methodology that does.

 

[The Chairman]

It was the old instructional methodology that did not focus on buoyancy. It is the new methodology that does.

Amen bro. Amen.

If I were to increase the OW course, it would be mostly to include rescue skills. Looking back, I THINK I would've taken such a course and paid more for it for safety reasons.

I'm trying not to be a POV warrior here, but most accidents happen because of divers being out of control, aka white-knuckle diving. They learned that in their OW class. Rephrasing that: they didn't learn trim and buoyancy which are the foundations of being in control. If you want to see classes become safer then you have to include trim and buoyancy. The best rescue is the one you've avoided by being in control.

 

[TMHeimer]

Amen bro. Amen.

I'm trying not to be a POV warrior here, but most accidents happen because of divers being out of control, aka white-knuckle diving. They learned that in their OW class. Rephrasing that: they didn't learn trim and buoyancy which are the foundations of being in control. If you want to see classes become safer then you have to include trim and buoyancy. The best rescue is the one you've avoided by being in control.

Absolutely agree. But the actual skills you learn in Rescue course IMO are very important and basic. Aside from the preventative and self rescue stuff, you learn stuff like exactly what to do with a panicking buddy on the surface. The mechanics--what to try first (yell at him to inflate/drop weights), spin him to face you, establish buoyancy (knee cradle?)--If that's not gunna work, approach uw and release weights. And other stuff like bringing an unconscious diver up, rescue breaths while towing, etc.
That is why I would probably have taken an extended OW course that included Rescue. I think we all agree that everyone should take Rescue -- "Greatest course I've ever taken", etc. But I would guess the vast majority don't.
No doubt extended OW courses adding more hours working on buoyancy and trim to avoid rescue situations would be another reason I may have taken such a course. It's of course best to be skilled in buoyancy to avoid rescue scenarios--but what if they do happen, and with two new divers who have good buoyancy but don't know the rescue drills?

 

[The Chairman]

Absolutely agree. But the actual skills you learn in Rescue course IMO are very important and basic. Aside from the preventative and self rescue stuff, you learn stuff like exactly what to do with a panicking buddy on the surface.

Depending on the student, they will probably get some peanut drills during OW including panicked diver on the surface. If they are really doing well, then they'll also get to try unconscious diver on the bottom. Both are NAUI required OW skills and I used to teach them with every class. Now, the student has to earn that by demonstrating excellent trim and buoyancy skills. Again, students who master trim and buoyancy just don't seem to get into trouble. If you're not always in a near panic, you have the time to check your gauges and will notice other issues before they find you.

I think we all agree that everyone should take Rescue

I don't agree with that at all. I love teaching rescue and it is a fun, fun course. But I see too many out of control divers take and even pass rescue. Get your skills in order first. If you want to go the DM route, then by all means, please take rescue and even Master Diver.

 

[TMHeimer]

Depending on the student, they will probably get some peanut drills during OW including panicked diver on the surface. If they are really doing well, then they'll also get to try unconscious diver on the bottom. Both are NAUI required OW skills and I used to teach them with every class. Now, the student has to earn that by demonstrating excellent trim and buoyancy skills. Again, students who master trim and buoyancy just don't seem to get into trouble. If you're not always in a near panic, you have the time to check your gauges and will notice other issues before they find you.


I don't agree with that at all. I love teaching rescue and it is a fun, fun course. But I see too many out of control divers take and even pass rescue. Get your skills in order first. If you want to go the DM route, then by all means, please take rescue and even Master Diver.

I think we're basically on the same page. Apologize in talking PADI regarding those rescue skills you mention being in the NAUI OW--I did not realize they were and am glad to hear that.
You are saying that these 2 rescue skills are NAUI required OW skills, so I assume that all your students MUST have excellent trim/buoyancy to earn, as you say, doing these 2 skills. Which means all must wind up with both good buoyancy/trim AND pass those 2 rescue skills. I assume you never certify anyone who doesn't fulfill it all. Sounds right on to me.
My saying that we all agree everyone should take rescue is based again on PADI, but also what I've read on SB the past 10 years. I've never read anyone saying it is not a good idea, or not valuable. Then again, since the basic skills you describe (are there any others?) are required by NAUI OW, perhaps Rescue Course is not such a dire need. My contact with the "outside" world is somewhat limited, but from what I read here, I completely agree that there are Rescue Divers, DMs, and Instructors that suck.

 

[EireDiver606]

Your statement here still implies that a diver's buoyancy is either on or off.

Several years ago a couple friends and I did a dive in Akumal. There the reef is so close the dives are all 1-tank. The DM we had for our first dive was one we had not seen previously. When the dive was over, he said he had noticed that the 3 of us were the only divers signed up for the next dive, and he wondered if he could take us to a more challenging site than the ones they normally do. We agreed.

When we started gearing up, though, we saw that another couple had joined the dive. When we got to the dive site, they struggled with their buoyancy. The DM gave the wife a buoyancy lesson in the sand for the first 5 minutes of the dive. We started to dive the site, a beautiful one with labyrinthine passages through the coral, but it was obvious that the other couple were not good enough to handle it, so we just floated around over it all.

When we got back to shore, the DM apologized. He said that the couple who joined us only had about 25 dives, and their buoyancy was just not good enough. He said they just didn't have the vast experience we obviously did. I pointed to my two friends and told him that I had just certified them the day before. He had witnessed their first two dives as certified divers.

No, we do not expect perfect buoyancy from new divers. I don't expect that I will ever reach perfection myself. On the other hand, it is possible for brand new divers to come out of an OW class looking like experienced divers, and it doesn't take any more time and effort to do it. All it takes is a different approach.

And this is NOT an old time diver talking about how great things were in the past. It was the old instructional methodology that did not focus on buoyancy. It is the new methodology that does.

Ok fair enough

 

[The Chairman]

You are saying that these 2 rescue skills are NAUI required OW skills,

They were when I was still a NAUI instructor. I don't think they've eliminated them. I left NAUI over other issues.

so I assume that all your students MUST have excellent trim/buoyancy to earn, as you say, doing these 2 skills.

I'm no longer a NAUI instructor and NASE, whom I teach my OW students through don't require those two skills, but they do allow me to add them. Every student is different and my main goal in OW is to produce comfortable divers with solid control. Once they've achieved that, I want them to feel challenged. The better they do, the more challenges I throw at them. But the goal is the basics. I'm satisfied with any student that passes the pool sessions. They have an understanding of trim, buoyancy and control that surpasses most DMs and many an instructor.

 

[TMHeimer]

They were when I was still a NAUI instructor. I don't think they've eliminated them. I left NAUI over other issues.

I'm no longer a NAUI instructor and NASE, whom I teach my OW students through don't require those two skills, but they do allow me to add them. Every student is different and my main goal in OW is to produce comfortable divers with solid control. Once they've achieved that, I want them to feel challenged. The better they do, the more challenges I throw at them. But the goal is the basics. I'm satisfied with any student that passes the pool sessions. They have an understanding of trim, buoyancy and control that surpasses most DMs and many an instructor.

In reading your posts, it is clear that your students are very fundamentally sound. How often do you now add those rescue skills? Do you certify any that are very sound but haven't been taught them? Just curious.

 

[The Chairman]

How often do you now add those rescue skills?

Maybe %10. The point is not to have them ready to rescue others. The goal is to give them the competence to dive safely so they'll never have to be rescued. Every class is tailored to the student's needs and wants. No two are alike, though some skills that were "optional" have become the norm for my class. Buddy breathing two lengths of the pool for an instance. There's no requirement for it, but the demeanor it imparts to my students is amazing. This is especially helpful with nervous Nellies as it helps them to calm down a lot. A whole lot. Respiration slows noticeably after this exercise and their ability to learn increases.