I have been doing some research...

[sharpenu]

Because of the recent threads about DIR, I have been looking into the claims that are made in regards to the DIR system having an exemplary safety record. I am doing this to be as fair as possible, as if it IS the safest system, perhaps we all have something to learn from DIR. I must say that it is very difficult to do, as the agency is very closed mouthed on releasing ANY information. A recent call to GUE bore little fruit. I called them and asked a simple question: "How many divers have been certified by your agency?" The woman answering the phone responded with "Alot." and I asked "How many is a lot?" She put me on hold and put a male on the line who told me "We at GUE can't release those numbers, they are proprietary, but I can tell you we have only a couple of dozen instructors worldwide, and our class is typically longer than NAUI, PADI or SSI". On further research, I discovered the names of five reported graduates of GUE who received fatal injuries while diving.

The questions I have are as follows:
Is the George Irvine posting on Aquanaut mailing list THE Irvine of GUE and DIR fame?

Were Bob McGuire, Steve Berman, Sherwood Schile, Robert Wolov and John Gol certified through GUE?

Even if I can confirm the above bits of information, I do not have enough information for any conclusions at this time. I do however have alot of anecdotal information, ME reports, etc.

 

[Friggincold]

Some of those people died before GUE was even around.
Friggincold

 

[jetblast00]

George Irvine doesn't really have anything to do with GUE.
and GUE doesn't do OW instruction.

The saftey record refered to in other threads were concerning the WKPP. Any diver that gets a GUE certification is in no way nessecarily connected to WKPP, or exclusivly to GUE.

A Basic breakdown of the players:
-George runs WKPP.
-JJ and George are dive buddies at WKPP. (more or less)
-George Irvine coined the phrase "DIR".
-JJ founded GUE (with others too) to teach the DIR method to the masses.
-JJ is CEO of EE which sells DIR gear to the masses.

 

[sharpenu]

I understand that GUE doesn't do OW cert. But they DO teach the DIR system, a system which they claim has a perfect safety record. I am just trying to find out if it is indeed perfect or not. George Irvine, who is listed as being one of the founders of DIR, with Mr Jablonski, has made the claim that they have a perfect safety record. I am not doubting that when it comes to the WKPP. I am however skeptical when it comes to divers beyond the control of WKPP who have received the training. I am trying to confirm or deny Mr Irvine's statement. The George Irvine on the Aquanaut server claims the divers in question died when they failed to follow DIR system guidelines. My feeling on this is nearly every diver who is killed departed from the established guidlines of his certifying agency, no matter which one it is. So, I want to determine if the GUE/DIR philosophy is intrinsically safer than other systems, and why or why not? This is in no way a witch hunt, but is instead an honest attempt at improving one diver's knowledge of the sport.

 

[jetblast00]

ok, that's fair. But where is the claim that DIR has a perfect safety record? I'm just asking, cause I've never seen it. I have seen the claim that WKPP has a perfect saftey record (right or wrong...)

I don't think that anyone would say "come learn our system and you'll never die, no matter how much of a dumb a** you are" No system will prevent you from deviating from the system

 

[Friggincold]

I have never seen it purported that GUE has a perfect safety record. I have seen George write numerous times
that the WKPP team has a perfect record under his leadership. If you can show a thread where the Safety claim is mentioned by a GUE Instructor or Officer I'd really like to know. Because I am considering GUE training and that may make a difference in my thinking.
Thanks
Friggincold

 

[Uncle Pug]

Hi Sharpenu,

To do good to do research...
You'll need to start with a correct premise...

As has already been pointed out by others, yours is flawed.

However I would be interested in the results of your research any way as I think they could be applied to a corrected premise and analyzed for relevant information.

 

[sharpenu]

Even stating that DIR is safer than others is a rather bold statement to make. Anyone having dates or information on the decedents above or on any DIR related accidents would be appreciated. I do, however, require evidence, not just stories, or "he said" or "my friend knows this guy that..."

 

[neil]

Pug,
I'm a little confused about what you think Sharpenu's flawed premise is. Seems like he's just gathering info so far. It's way too early to get defensive .

To all:
This is an interesting subject. But you can never really answer what Sharpenu wants to know.

Are there more divers alive because they have DIR training than divers with other training?
Okay, I'll play: NAUI has a perfect safety record because nobody can prove that a diver has died because of NAUI training.

The only true thing we know (as far as I know) is that nobody has died at WKPP under Irvine's watch, and that is probably due to strict adherence to his system.

Sharpenu,
Keep up the interesting line of inquiry and keep us posted.

Neil

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by neil
Pug,
I'm a little confused about what you think Sharpenu's flawed premise is. Seems like he's just gathering info so far. It's way too early to get defensive .

Oh Yah Shur... Yer confused like a fox Neil

No defense need be mounted...
The flawed premise is that *GUE has claimed a perfect record of no fatalities*....

Actually any premise that is built upon an agency's claims is specious....

"Just the facts, Ma'am....just the facts."
Joe Friday lets Perry Mason work on the motive and intent angle.