How well do you hold stops?

[DevonDiver]

Jiminey Christmas. Those are the standards??

Not the diving/performance standards, thankfully. They are from the theory presentation in the Deep Specialty Instructor Manual.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Maybe they were 'PADI Deep Diver' qualified and simply advising based on what they were officially taught?

PADI Deep Diver Course, Specialty Instructor Manual, Knowledge Development:
5. Deep diving descents or ascents without reference
a. Are not recommended. Try to make every deep diving descent or ascent either holding on to a reference line or near a sloping bottom or wall.
b. If a descent or ascent must be made without a reference, follow these guidelines:
• At the start, place your body in a feet-down, vertical position.

10... How to make a safety stop with the aid of a reference line:
• Using your depth gauge, find the place on the line that is 5 metres/15 feet below the surface — grab the line just above that point (this positions the mid-chest area at 5 metres/15 feet).
• Your body should be vertical and parallel with line.
• Neutralize buoyancy or get slightly negative.
• Have one buddy watch time, the other watch depth. The diver watching depth is to constantly adjust both his and his buddy’s depth level.


e. How to make a safety stop without the aid of a reference line (lost line):
• After a proper ascent, make physical contact with your buddy.
• Neutralize buoyancy
• Remain vertical — feet-down, head-up position. If a current is present swim slowly, side-by-side into the current. Avoid overexertion.
• Have one buddy watch time, the other watch depth. The diver watching depth is to constantly adjust both his and his buddy’s depth level.

Can't blame the diver for applying the training they were given...

How do you, remain vertical and slowly swim into the current while holding your buddy during a safety stop? And why would they recommend swimming into a current? Is it likely the divers would know the current direction when doing the safety stop? If they are so clueless that neither one is capable of monitoring time and depth, who is supposed to watch the compass to direct the teams swimming direction?

 

[Diver0001]

Jiminey Christmas. Those are the standards??

The standard says this:

Five point ascent and safety stop — Emphasize maintaining buoyancy control, proper ascent rate and buddy contact during the ascent. Have them perform the five points of an ascent with a buddy and make a three minute safety stop at five metres/15 feet. The safety stop is required. A certified assistant may evaluate this safety stop if you have conducted and evaluated a safety stop on Open Water Dives 1, 2 or 3. Remind divers to listen for boats, if applicable, and to watch overhead for obstructions before surfacing. After surfacing, assess that divers maintain good habits by immediately inflating their BCDs, keeping their masks on and breathing from their snorkels or regulators until out of the water or in water shallow enough in which to walk.

What Andy quoted and said was the standards is a discussion out of the deep diver theory suggesting that if you are ascending along a reference line that you should keep your body vertical and parallel to the line. Some people would disagree with that advice and some instructors would disagree with that advice. In fact, you're not *required* to teach that at all. The standards generally tell the instructor what he has to do, but not how. The only exception being the execution of the CESA.

R..

 

[chillyinCanada]

RJP we need a "ROFL" button, not just a "like" button for your posts in this thread.

 

[waterpirate]

Vortizontal: what happens when your jon line is clipped off in current to your scooter ring.
Eric

 

[DevonDiver]

What Andy quoted and said was the standards is a discussion out of the deep diver theory...

Just to clarify, I have not said they were "standards". I quoted them from the PADI Wreck Specialty Instructor Manual, from the academic/theory section. I made that clear. I also made clear in Post #41 that they were not standards.

...suggesting that....

The academic portions contained in the specialty instructor manual aren't given as a 'suggestion'. I would quote from the same manual:

“Academic Topics” provides specific information that is to be presented to students prior to the conclusion of the course.
PADI Specialty Instructor Manual, Product No. 70224 (Rev. 5/05) Version 1.05, Deep Diver Specialty Course Instructor Outline, Page VI

That doesn't look like a 'suggestion' to me.

In fact, you're not *required* to teach that at all. The standards generally tell the instructor what he has to do, but not how.

See my quoted reference, above. I am surprised you interpret that as optional - it seems quite mandatory, given the language used.

That said, as we both agree, it is not a training standard applicable to actual training dive conduct. So, PADI instructors do have the liberty to conduct horizontal safety stops; of which many do, including myself.

I don't want to push this thread off-topic, so can we simply agree that there are some agencies who promote/advocate vertical safety stops within their academic theory training? That, in itself, would explain why some thread participants have encountered other divers who seem to believe that vertical stops are optimal.

 

[Diver0001]

See my quoted reference, above. I am surprised you interpret that as optional - it seems quite mandatory, given the language used.

It's mandatory to cover all the academic work, but PADI makes a distinction between mandatory procedures and recommendations. You know that.

That, in itself, would explain why some thread participants have encountered other divers who seem to believe that vertical stops are optimal.

What I think is more likely is that those DM's were doing things as they were taught, which is not necessarily what the standards say, but how individual instructors (the ones who trained those DM's) decided for themselves.

As I said above, the standards define what needs to be taught, but in most cases not how. You still seem to be blaming the agency for this, when you know very well that the agency doesn't have a mandatory procedure with respect to how a safety stop is performed and that it's individual instructors who decide how they want to teach it.

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

You still seem to be blaming the agency for this,...

Blaming for what? All I see is that PADI provides materials/instructor notes that educate divers that a vertical safety stop is recommended. Is that such a negative thing?

There are pros/cons to both vertical and horizontal safety stops. Assuming that this is an 'attack' on PADI necessitates a belief that vertical safety stops are somehow a terrible idea. That it is 'wrong' to recommend them at the relevant level of training. I have not jumped to any conclusions about that - it's probably a good discussion to have; at least for the benefit of novice divers reading this.

I, like you, teach from horizontal. I believe I can justify that approach. That doesn't mean I think that a vertical safety stop is 'wrong'. If not 'wrong', then there is no attack.

I do wonder what other agencies teach, if they specify that at all,... I don't have references available to check.

 

[Diver0001]

Blaming for what? All I see is that PADI provides materials/instructor notes that educate divers that a vertical safety stop is recommended. Is that such a negative thing?

.

i don't think anyone had any doubt in their mind that your intention was to ridicule PADI. Even now you are not being factual. PADI recommended making a vertical ascent along an up line. It is not a general recommendation for all safety stops. It does get old.

R..




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[ianr33]

I hold a lot of my deco stops to within an inch or so.

Either lying on the bottom or pinned to the ceiling. Some things about cave diving are easy.