Diver Dennis
Contributor
Yes Jeff, good point.
How was your transition from jacket to BP?
- Thread starter Skinsfan1311
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lamont:
Or at least they'd be safer wearing properly fitting and properly adjusted gear with the right amount of weight so that it wasn't blown up so much that it was squeezing them .....
Maybe I'm crazy but wouldn't putting the bladder on the back just remove the symptom without treating the disease?
R..
jim T.
Guest
Well...I'm going to chime in as someone who is waiting for his b.p./ wing rig to show up U.P.S. this week and hasn't dove one yet. But the reason I'm choosing this rig include:
l. Ergonomic necessity: To protect drysuit shoulder exhaust valves I have been taught to don a b.c. left arm lst. I have an old broken clavicle injury that restricts my range of motion on my right shoulder a bit. It's kind of painful bending back and feeling around for those floppy straps and getting drysuit folds caught on the clips and ever changing shape of the arm "holes".
I dove Voit or Scubapro hard plastic backplates (w/horsecollar) 30 yrs. ago a few times and now that I've revived my scuba activity I really miss that feeling of firmness and anchoring of the tank to my back with no shifting /rolling and the lack of b.c. squeeze. I have recently started renting back inflate b.c.s and I feel like I'm halfway to MY comfort zone in this regard AND for me personally an increase in ease of arm through donning the with a Hogarthian rig should be a benefit. My Voit or Scubapro backplates had Hogarthian style straps.
Until I dive a b.p. mid Feb. I won't be able to tell how much easier it'll make it for me to improve trim skills but I strongly, intuitively sense that it'll make a big difference after a brief learning curve. I've always followed my gut instincts and this overwhemingly seems like the "right" thing for me. I've always regretted not following my gut instincts and personal muscle memory and experiences so I'm pretty certain it'll be a good thing.
I know that the continuous webbing harness gives people (and maybe me too at first) a hard time getting their arms through-but for me, based on my '70s experiences, it's MUCH easier for me to get my arms through relatilvely stiff thick webbing than those floppy, dangly pivoted, always in a different place, quick release jobs with my cantankerous shoulder. At least the arm "holes" are always standing still and in one place!
Having seen the better trim I'm gaining with a back inflate b.c. I can't help but feel that the very stable/wide backplate on a b.p./wing along with the back inflation wing is going to be ergonomically better for me.
Having some weight blocks in the back of the back inflate soft b.c. has allowed me to swim on my back and on my front to snorkel for navigating or easing up stiffness or cramping. I'll always carry a snorkel on dives whether stowed in a pocket or on my mask strap for this very reason. Another form of safety redundancy in my view for OW salt water diving.
I was initially attracted to the infinite adjustability of the Transplate Harness (Dive Rite) but realized that it wouldn't be much different in the donning of a jacket/backinflate b.c. I found the quick release shoulder straps even tougher with my bum shoulder, to clip together after throwing it over my shoulder. So...my conjecture here is that the Hogarthian harness MAY be of some benefit to those of us who've been through physical therapy!
To be continuued...;-)
l. Ergonomic necessity: To protect drysuit shoulder exhaust valves I have been taught to don a b.c. left arm lst. I have an old broken clavicle injury that restricts my range of motion on my right shoulder a bit. It's kind of painful bending back and feeling around for those floppy straps and getting drysuit folds caught on the clips and ever changing shape of the arm "holes".
I dove Voit or Scubapro hard plastic backplates (w/horsecollar) 30 yrs. ago a few times and now that I've revived my scuba activity I really miss that feeling of firmness and anchoring of the tank to my back with no shifting /rolling and the lack of b.c. squeeze. I have recently started renting back inflate b.c.s and I feel like I'm halfway to MY comfort zone in this regard AND for me personally an increase in ease of arm through donning the with a Hogarthian rig should be a benefit. My Voit or Scubapro backplates had Hogarthian style straps.
Until I dive a b.p. mid Feb. I won't be able to tell how much easier it'll make it for me to improve trim skills but I strongly, intuitively sense that it'll make a big difference after a brief learning curve. I've always followed my gut instincts and this overwhemingly seems like the "right" thing for me. I've always regretted not following my gut instincts and personal muscle memory and experiences so I'm pretty certain it'll be a good thing.
I know that the continuous webbing harness gives people (and maybe me too at first) a hard time getting their arms through-but for me, based on my '70s experiences, it's MUCH easier for me to get my arms through relatilvely stiff thick webbing than those floppy, dangly pivoted, always in a different place, quick release jobs with my cantankerous shoulder. At least the arm "holes" are always standing still and in one place!
Having seen the better trim I'm gaining with a back inflate b.c. I can't help but feel that the very stable/wide backplate on a b.p./wing along with the back inflation wing is going to be ergonomically better for me.
Having some weight blocks in the back of the back inflate soft b.c. has allowed me to swim on my back and on my front to snorkel for navigating or easing up stiffness or cramping. I'll always carry a snorkel on dives whether stowed in a pocket or on my mask strap for this very reason. Another form of safety redundancy in my view for OW salt water diving.
I was initially attracted to the infinite adjustability of the Transplate Harness (Dive Rite) but realized that it wouldn't be much different in the donning of a jacket/backinflate b.c. I found the quick release shoulder straps even tougher with my bum shoulder, to clip together after throwing it over my shoulder. So...my conjecture here is that the Hogarthian harness MAY be of some benefit to those of us who've been through physical therapy!
To be continuued...;-)
*Floater*
Contributor
Skinsfan1311:How difficult was the transition?Thanks everyone!
For me it took a while. I bought the bp/w with hog harness, so it took some time to rig it and then adjust it just right - in fact I only perfected it while taking a class that involved backplates and wings. Same thing with putting it on and taking it off. After about 35 dives in this rig it's still harder for me than with a jacket bcd. You also need to do another buoyancy check once you have all your new gear.
Next you have to learn to shift air around inside the wing and to use the rear dump. I'm still perfecting my rear dump ing - I'm not yet comfortable with butt up ascents in open water, and often go back to the power inflator/deflator. For me dumping gas from the wing was more difficult than with a jacket bcd - perhaps because I was better weighed and better trimmed. Getting that last bit of air out can be tricky. With a jacket I would go vertical if necessary and use the power inflator/deflator and the jacket was probably never near to completely empty so it was easier to dump. With a bp/w I try to stay horizontal. If I go vertical then the dumping becomes just as easy as it used to be with the jackets though.
My girlfiriend also tried the bp/w setup for 5 dives and she felt it was pretty much the same as using a jacket, except it fit much better than any of her rental jacket bcds, but was harder to deflate and harder to put on and take off. After the 5 dives she still hadn't completely mastered those things. Also she did have some trouble balancing the wing out when using a horseshoe.
Just my experiences. I know there are guys here who got it all instantaneously but I wasn't one of them - maybe because my jacket diving wasn't perfected by the time of my switch. Of course now that I've learned the better ways of using the bp/w system such as how to best put it on and take it off, I can explain it easily to my girlfirend so her transition will be relatively easy once her new bp/w system arrives.
Maybe I'm crazy but wouldn't putting the bladder on the back just remove the symptom without treating the disease?
If there are no symptoms, why worry about a disease? This is not a medical affliction - it is an equipment preference. You don't need a prescription.
It seems to me like this rig has alot of benefits. Many of these have already been mentioned.
These rigs are used by many people for many different reasons. My reason is because I like them. It just happens to be part of an extremely well thought out holistic system that I happen to agree with.
I think alot of people will like them. I think the starter of this thread will like them.
Fixing basic problems with equipment is a good thing. Problem number one is that we cannot breathe underwater... Sounds like a regulator will fix it. Cold water divers with thick gloves may find their clips to be unoperable: bigger clip = smaller problem. I don't like weight on my hips and because of my backplate I don't need any.
My bet is that new divers who switch to this system and establish good skills will do just fine in a jacket once those skills are solidified. I just don't understand why anyone would ever switch back. Anyone pursuing advanced forms of diving would be well off to use a system that will not require changing when they advance. Specialized equipment can be added to this rig without switching out the entire unit. That is why jackets and mass-marketed bcds are generally not used for cave diving, wreck diving, ice diving, commercial diving, or scootering.
Show me a jacket rig with a hip D-ring, crotch strap D-rings, no cumberbunds, an innovative weighting system, one that is streamlined, and one that can be broken down into generic pieces that can be replaced on the cheap.
You can't. There are reasons people use them. It is because they are great.
-V
If there are no symptoms, why worry about a disease? This is not a medical affliction - it is an equipment preference. You don't need a prescription.
It seems to me like this rig has alot of benefits. Many of these have already been mentioned.
These rigs are used by many people for many different reasons. My reason is because I like them. It just happens to be part of an extremely well thought out holistic system that I happen to agree with.
I think alot of people will like them. I think the starter of this thread will like them.
Fixing basic problems with equipment is a good thing. Problem number one is that we cannot breathe underwater... Sounds like a regulator will fix it. Cold water divers with thick gloves may find their clips to be unoperable: bigger clip = smaller problem. I don't like weight on my hips and because of my backplate I don't need any.
My bet is that new divers who switch to this system and establish good skills will do just fine in a jacket once those skills are solidified. I just don't understand why anyone would ever switch back. Anyone pursuing advanced forms of diving would be well off to use a system that will not require changing when they advance. Specialized equipment can be added to this rig without switching out the entire unit. That is why jackets and mass-marketed bcds are generally not used for cave diving, wreck diving, ice diving, commercial diving, or scootering.
Show me a jacket rig with a hip D-ring, crotch strap D-rings, no cumberbunds, an innovative weighting system, one that is streamlined, and one that can be broken down into generic pieces that can be replaced on the cheap.
You can't. There are reasons people use them. It is because they are great.
-V
If what we assume about this diver is true then there will be other symptoms. By blaming the gear and changing BCD we have ignored the essential *technique* issue that caused the problem to start with. The diver in question still isn't conscious of the importance of proper "fit" and "adjustment" and they are probably still carrying too much weight. The effects of squeeze are gone but they'll still have trouble with something else -- maybe buoyancy, maybe a too-tight suit, maybe a neckseal that doesn't fit and leaks..... the way of thinking -- blaming gear for the problem -- is not going to help them in the long run.
On the other hand, if the diver in question had been instructed in proper *technique* for fit and adjustment and the amount of weight then a few things would have happened (1) they would be able to dive in the jacket if they choose to (2) they would be able to dive in the bp/wing if they choose to (3) they would have become aware of their mistakes and a thought process would have been set in motion that would form one of the basic underpinnings of excellence for the rest of their diving (namely, solve technique problems with proper technique... solve gear problems with proper gear -- or conversely : we do *not* blame our gear for technique problems nor do we try to solve technique problems with gear)
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not here to be pro-jacket or anti-bp/wing. I have one of both and I'm well aware that they have different strengths and weaknesses.
What I'm trying to do is start making people aware -- to see through -- that many anti-jacket and/or pro-bp/wing arguments are not what they seem. There are a lot of people out there who are trying to solve technique problems with gear.
If someone says "I went for the bp because it got some weight off my belt and put it between my shoulders and that helped my trim" then I think they know about trim and they're applying their skills.
But if someone says "I hate my jacket becasue I can't get horizontal in it and therefore I'm going to buy a bp/wing", then I get a very different feeling. This diver probably still doesn't know about trim and if they do manage to get horizontal in the bp/wing it will be a fluke. they may get horizontal but they probably won't know how they did it. These are the same divers who get all poetic about the bp/wing when they fluke out and get horizontal in it and then come back again 6 weeks later and say "I bought a twin-80 and now I'm head down and can't fix the problem....what do I do".
I think we can help divers like Mr.#2 above by telling them less about how wonderful bp/wings are and more about how to solve their technique problems.
The point is, if you read all the jacket vs. bp/wing threads with this in mind you'll start to see a very different picture emerging.
R..
Matthew
Contributor
Excellent posts, Diver0001. I've wanted to bring up the points you make in many instances but couldnt express myself as well as you did. Thanks.
Matthew
Contributor
Vayu:
No, its because they are a necessity for many types of diving.
Of course they are also good for warm water rec dives like we do here, but the advantages, if any, would be very limited - if you know how to dive.
matt_unique
Guest
The transition was a non-issue. The difference in terms of how a BP/W felt in the water compared to a BC was negligible. I welcomed the positive advantages however - more room for gear, less lead required, and my tanks were more stable on my back.
--Matt
--Matt
ProfessorAronnax
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matt_unique:
Exactly
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