How to tell the DM you're not a disaster underwater?

[Storker]

There's an initial fascination with depth that overlooks this reality. Many new divers buy into talk by a few bloviating wannabes trying to look badass that "real" divers go deep. Avoid the macho trap and never catch a ride on the ego bus. Really seasoned divers are just as happy, and some times more so, doing a 30 ft dive over a 130 ft dive.

The only reason for me to go to the deep end of my range is if there's something there I want to see. Either because that something just can't be found shallow, or because the vis in the shallows sucks. Up here in green water country, unless it's winter the vis usually sucks in the shallows. Which can be anything from the top three meters to the top thirty meters.

When n00bs or non-divers ask the unavoidable question about how deep I dive, I tell them that while I'm certified to XX m, I don't dive that deep because I've set my personal limit to YY m. That often leads to an interesting conversation about the different things that need to be handled when you start going deeper than the OWD recommended limit.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

@Diving Dubai

"Debatable. Actually BSAC was formed a few months earlier and ScotSAC was formed a little before BSAC so to say they (LA COunty) were the first in the world is technically disingenuous. In the USA certainly

However what is interesting that in an era where the main communication was stil via letters etc, groups of people 6000 miles distant all had a similar idea.

But I digress. Apart from the mainstream agencies, how can you expect a DM in say French Polynesia to recognise each and every agency and their certs?

I only heard about LA CO. and NASE or SEI etc from SB If someone showed me one of those cards I'd still have to look up the equivalencies as you would with a BSAC or CMAS cert "

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It is universally recognized that the BSAC was club based-- Club membership required

In the US, especially in SoCal where it is generally sunny, warm with an inviting ocean full of fish the worlds first DIVE CLUB the San Diego Bottom Scratchers was formed in 1931 -88 years ago.

It was followed by the forming of the Neptune DIVE CLUBS in the 1930s by the inventor of the recreational dry suit, Bill Barada (LA Co UW Instructor & NAUI Instructor A-1) After WW11 in the 1940s dive clubs proliferated through out SoCal and to a lessor extent in other areas of the US. Every DIVE CLUB had a training component - a "Dive Instructor " or a "Dive training Officer" All before BSAC ...
Of course you knew all this...

In 1948 -71 years ago - (I and) the US was introduced to the world of "Swim Diving" via Dr. Hans Hass B&W movie "Under the red sea" Late the same year the American author James Dougan published "The first of the men fish" and Cousteau divers and "Cousteau diving" had arrived
Of course you saw the movie and read Dougan's article

The dive clubs increased in size and members. In 1950, just two years after the arrival of the bubble machine the LA Council of Divers held the world's first International Spear fishing meet, won by the Compton Dolphins (Kummerfeild . Hoss & O Malley) The International Spear fishing meet was held every year for about 15 years
Of course you were a participant at the meets

The he late Connie Limbaugh and Dr. Andy Rechnitzer of Scripps Institute of Oceanography aka SIO developed the first recognized diving program in the very late 1940s - early 1950s almost immediately after the arrival of the bubble maker

In 1954 the late Bevlee Morgan & Dr. Al Tillman of the LA county life guard/ recreation department along with LA Life guard Ramsey Parks traveled to San Diego and were instructed by the SIO staff on the principles of diving. They returned to LA and created the LA County Underwater instructors program, published the LA Co training manual Underwater Safety. later changed to Underwater Recreation, to teach selected divers to become LA Co Certified Underwater Instructors via Underwater Instructors Certification Course - UICC (the acronym SCUBA was not in common usage) . It was designed and developed as a prestigious and demanding local program in which many have applied for the program, a select few are accepted, only the best will graduate .It is still a very strong local program next Saturday LA Co UIA will be celebrating their 66 UICC graduation.

The USN did not have a underwater (SCUBA) Training program until October 16. 1956 with the publication of NAVSHIPS 250-538, several years after SIO and 2 -1/2 years after UIA was developed. There are many similarities in the training policies and procedures which are based on previously developed SIO and LA UICC.

Therefore the first effective certified dive training can be traced back to SIO to LA CO and finally USN...

The club system of dive training can be traced to the SD Bottom Scratchers in 1931 or after the introduction of Lung aka "SCUBA" to SIO then LA Co. which was the father and mother of all the worlds "Diving Certification' programs,

In August 1960 under the direction of Al Tillman a number of LA Co UW instructors traveled to Houston Texas the Underwater Society of America (USA) international dive conference to present the first NAUI certification course

In the late 1970s PADI was created in Chicago and moved west with John Cronin. The first director of PADI was LA Co UW instructor Nic Icorn. A few years later the first PADI Manual was authored by Paul Hill. LA CO UW Instructor and Dennis Graver NAUI Instructor

Apparently all recreational dive clubs can be traced to the SD Bottom Scratchers and all civilian dive training programs have a genealogy that traces directly back to SIO and LA Co .

I am always reminded of the time my wife and I visited the famous NM Blue hole. We wandered around the parking lot as tourist occasionally engaging in conversation with the "divers." One local who apparently was an instructor was very engaging and informed us that there was absolutely no diving before PADI - No magazines , No books, No manuals No training !

He evidently drank the same cool aid as you have been drinking

I will eagerly await your most knowledge I think, I believe, I was told response

Sam Miller, 111

CC
@The Chairman
@Akimbo
@Scuba Lawyer

I'd add to Sam's history that YMCA began trial training programs in 1954/1955 and certified its first divers in 1959 I believe. I suspect (and Sam, please correct me if I'm wrong) that this was the first certification available nation-wide in the USA.

 

[markmud]

Again, what makes one dive a more "quality" dive than another?

Sometimes the quality is inversely proportional to the depth. Sometimes it is directly related to the depth.

Hi Pete,

I think the logical answer to your question is totally subjective.

I flew across a great nation to dive Key Largo and the Spiegel Grove. I enjoyed the other dives, but I wanted to see the main attraction. For you, diving the Spiegel Grove would probably be boring--you have done it many, many times. I get that.

I had the opportunity to dive Carmel's walls and canyons...or so I thought. I had a well trained diver as a buddy. We had all the right gear. We were trained and experienced for those depths and conditions. My buddy happened to be a DM with hundreds of dives at Monterey/Carmel. We booked an advertised "Advanced dive" which included the "Carmel" surcharge. Unfortunately, we dove the same close-in sites because two newbs appeared on the boat. Keith and I were the losers, and the dive-op made more money by burning less fuel. We did not get a refund.

Let me land the airplane here, I am full circle, and here is my point:
Sometimes going a little deeper has different rewards. @stuartv is correct, sometimes the attraction is at depth. Sometimes we travel and plan to dive the "main attraction."

Next January, you know for a fact that I am running my PP of O2 to 1.4 on 32%. I may dive the BBW just once. I want to see it from 110 fsw to 0 fsw. The vast majority of my dives will be well above 60 fsw. That extra 50 foot of depth for 3 minutes will be well worth it for me.

cheers,
markm

 

[charlier]

My experience the guide usually figures it out pretty quick once you're under water...

Guides/DMs can figure it out after one dive, in particular at current-rich dive sites. On a liveaboard, we might switch around divers after a few dives and make sure that everyone is in appropriate groups with similar objectives and experience.

Added later: I find that the total number of dives, diver training, willingness to learn, and experience in a variety of dive sites (currents, deep, blue water) all play into the how we might determine dive groups and dive sites in remote Indonesia.

 

[The Chairman]

The Speigel Grove is not "boring" to me. I never said it was. I don't know that I could say any dive has been boring. I like deep dives, like the time we went to see a Helldiver @208FSW off of Jupiter. I missed seeing the plane, but I had a wonderful dive. Lots of deco, lots of blue. I would do it again. If I'm on the same boat, are they really going to give one group a better dive than the other? I just don't think so. Every dive is special in it's own way. Don't cop a tude because your group is less experienced. Have fun.

 

[Fastmarc]

If I'm on the same boat, are they really going to give one group a better dive than the other? I just don't think so. Every dive is special in it's own way. Don't cop a tude because your group is less experienced. Have fun.

I was about to ask this. Do they have dive boats that do separate dives (going to different site) on the same dive drop?

 

[The Chairman]

I was about to ask this. Do they have dive boats that do separate dives (going to different site) on the same dive drop?

Yes, but they are quite rare. I've been on less than a half dozen in my life time.

 

[Sam Miller III]

. @Seaweed Doc
stated:

I'd add to Sam's history that YMCA began trial training programs in 1954/1955 and certified its first divers in 1959 I believe.
I suspect (and Sam, please correct me if I'm wrong) that this was the first certification available nation-wide in the USA.
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Doc
you are correct ! YMCA began a program after LA Co -- However it was a JOKE !

Initially no polices or procedures, no training manuals no uniformity of instruction -The instructors taught under the director of the local YMCA who was the certifying agent

That is until 1957 when The Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving was published and became the standard for YMCA diving course and the Y tightened its program requrements

The Science of Skin and SCUBA was published for two years and totally revised under the able leadership of Bernie Empleton and others as the NEW Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving,​

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NEW Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving,was revised often and became the standard for the entire dive community, When publication ceased after about 20 years over 2 million copes were sold-- not certain how many were read​

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So you are so correct we and I, who began my long instruction career at the LB YMCA, owe the "Y" so much...It was my inadvertent omission ! I thank you for the reminder​

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Sam Miller, 111​

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[stuartv]

I get that there's no adrenaline rush like you get when you plumb the depths, but there's so much to see in the shallows. Slow down. Take time to smell the Christmastree worms. Whether you enjoy your dive, deep or shallow, is up to you. No matter the depth, the Ocean holds amazing wonders just waiting for you to discover.

For me, it's not at all about any adrenaline. And I am definitely not saying deeper is always better.

I was just saying that sometimes deeper is better. Sometimes shallow is better. But it's always better to have the option of choosing which you want, rather than being limited to shallow, with the inexperienced group.

 

[stuartv]

I was about to ask this. Do they have dive boats that do separate dives (going to different site) on the same dive drop?

To me that is less of a concern than an operation that has 2 (or more) boats and sends one boat to the site for less experienced divers while the other boat goes to the site for more experienced divers.

I want to be put on the boat with the more experienced divers - whether it's going somewhere deep or not.