How Much Reliance on Dive Shop Planning?

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The closest I can find to a cite is Brian Morris's "Ascending from a dive":
(Ascending from a scuba dive, | deep stops, |ascent rates, |safety stops, | time limits, | and gas needed)

Overall it reads like he is advocating longer safety stops (also deeper stops but that's a different can of worms) based on that. Obviously, if it works that way, it only works up to a point, but it implies that "most efficient off-gassing" would take somewhat longer than "as soon as it's safe".
There is a degree of truth th this--but only a degree.

According to bubble theory, the free gas in the body (which is in the form of bubbles) will exit at differing rates depending upon bubble size. That is the primary theory behind deep stops--keep the bubbles small in accordance with Boyle's Law.

Remember, though that one of the first time bubbles were studied in regard to decompression was when the PADI tables were created, and the no stop times we based on research that included looking at bubble formation in the divers. They found that bubble formation varied dramatically from one individual to another. Some would have pretty much no bubbles, others seemingly bubbled it they thought about diving. A diver in a no stop dive should not have significant issues with bubble formation.

But those free gas bubbles are only a tiny percentage of the nitrogen in the tissues. In fact, as stated above, on a no stop dive, many divers won't have much of any at all. The vast majority of the gas is dissolved in the tissues and will be exchanged in relation to the pressure gradient between the tissues and the inspired breathing gas.
 
According to bubble theory, the free gas in the body (which is in the form of bubbles) will exit at differing rates depending upon bubble size.

Yep. And then there seems to be a conflicting opinion that bubbles, no matter how tiny, will not pass through blood vessel walls and have to be dissolved no matter what. Someone who knows how lungs actually work may be able to comment on that, I'm just an academented geek sitting here waiting for a script to finish running.
 
I know you are only quoting Brian Morris, but this does seem to ignore the laws of physics. . .
The rate at which dissolved N2 will leave the body is a function of the differential partial pressures of N2 between the gas in the lungs and the dissolved gas in the blood.

Independent of the partial pressure of N2 in the blood, the differential between it and the gas in the lungs at the surface will be greater than the differential between it and the gas in the lungs while submerged

Open a bottle of soda too fast: the idea here is too much pressure differential. What John said: it creates bubbles that are too big to eliminate and now you have to wait for them to get re-absorbed before you can off-gas.
 
Open a bottle of soda too fast: the idea here is too much pressure differential. What John said: it creates bubbles that are too big to eliminate and now you have to wait for them to get re-absorbed before you can off-gas.
Not quite.

What you are talking about here is what you do to prevent bubbles from coming out of solution. When you look at a bottle of soda, you see no bubbles because there is sufficient ambient pressure with the cap on to keep them dissolved. Open the cap and the become exposed to the pressure in the environment. The pressure drops rapidly, allowing bubbles to form. Soda forms more and larger bubbles when it is opened on a mountain top because that gradient is even greater. That is why we do not ascend too fast, and that is why we do a safety stop, to keep the gradient between our tissues and our environment from becoming too great. That is classic dissolved gas theory for DCS prevention--keeping dissolved gas from coming out of solution.

That is not, however, what bubble theory is about. Bubble theory assumes bubbles already exist (and they do), and it tries to determine an ascent rate that will keep them from growing too large (or having too much total volume, depending upon the theory).

In both cases, the way to eliminate the nitrogen is by breathing a gas that has less nitrogen in it (in terms of partial pressure) than the nitrogen in the body. Every time you take a breath, you are inhaling N2 molecules, and some of them go into the body via the lungs and the blood, and some of them come out of the body through the blood and the lungs. When you have been doing this on the surface for a while, it all averages out--you have just as many coming in as going out. When you begin a dive to say 99 feet, you are suddenly putting 4 times as many N2 molecules in your lungs as in the body, so you have 4 times as many going in as coming out. Eventually it all begins to even out again. As you ascend, the partial pressure of the nitrogen you are breathing drops, so you have more coming out than going in. This drops the N2 in the tissues to safe levels so that we can continue to ascend and exit safely.

In dissolved gas theory, the best thing to do is to get as shallow as you can so that enough gas leaves the body and you do not have an unsafe gradient between the body and the surrounding environment. In bubble theory, that need is balanced with a theoretical need to stay deeper long enough to keep some of the bubbles that are already there from getting to be too big. How to make that balance work is the big question in decompression theory today.

In all cases, though, the bigger the gradient between the tissues and the inspired air, the faster the tissues will lose their N2. Technical divers breathe oxygen during their last stops because that maximizes the nitrogen gradient while there is still too much N2 present in the tissues to go directly to the surface.
 
Not quite.

What you are talking about here is what you do to prevent bubbles from coming out of solution.

:) Not quite: I open the cap on my TJ's sparkling spring water just a tiny crack and watch tiny bubbles form and hiss out. If I opened it all the way I'd need a new keyboard. It's different, granted, but similar in the too much pressure drop too fast sense.
 
:) Not quite: I open the cap on my TJ's sparkling spring water just a tiny crack and watch tiny bubbles form and hiss out. If I opened it all the way I'd need a new keyboard. It's different, granted, but similar in the too much pressure drop too fast sense.
Nope. Same thing.

You just gsave the bottle a safety stop, allowing the pressure in the bottle to drop closer to the ambient before opening it up.
 
Open a bottle of soda too fast: the idea here is too much pressure differential. What John said: it creates bubbles that are too big to eliminate and now you have to wait for them to get re-absorbed before you can off-gas.
Sorry, that wasn't my point.

Assume no DCS (remember it is not a required stop), and absorbed N2 is measured at same time.

Which diver has less absorbed N2. The one took a 3 minute safety stop, or the one that proceeded directly to the surface?

This isn't quite as fanciful as it might appear, I've had SSI instructors insist that taking a longer safety stop would increase their NDL for subsequent dives. . .
 
This isn't quite as fanciful as it might appear, I've had SSI instructors insist that taking a longer safety stop would increase their NDL for subsequent dives. . .
This is all VERY confusing and VERY hard to understand.
 
This isn't quite as fanciful as it might appear, I've had SSI instructors insist that taking a longer safety stop would increase their NDL for subsequent dives. . .

Heh. Do they believe in no-limit depth (PADI RDP seems to start at 35) and do they make their safety stops below that? +1 on VERY confusing.
 
Heh. Do they believe in no-limit depth (PADI RDP seems to start at 35) and do they make their safety stops below that? +1 on VERY confusing.
The PADI RDP has a maximum time for an air dive at 35 feet to be 205 minutes. They probably figured there would not be many recreational divers doing 3.5 hour dives.

So what about shallower? At 35 feet, you are a hair beyond 2 ATA, and according to Haldane's calculations, that would indeed be pretty much a no limit dive. Those calculations have since been made more conservative, but if you went to a 30 feet dive, you would indeed be pretty close to a no limit dive.
 

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