How much easier is TTL?

[Taxgeek]

I've got a dilemna. Maybe some of you have been through it?

I have been shooting video with my Canon S1 IS (a still camera that has video mode) and video lights. It does a great job. No fuss, no bother, point and shoot pretty much, and it just.comes.out.right. If you want to see my video, it is posted here:
http://video.mpegnation.com/a001131853488102305120718510.html

But I've recently gotten the itch to shoot stills. So I got a pair of strobes on closeout - Sea&Sea YS-90dx. They won't do TTL with my current camera (no strobes will, no port), so I got the fiber optic cable and use them on manual. They have 12 power settings, so I thought this would be an acceptable setup.

The problem is, IT'S NOT! ;-) Maybe I'm just impatient. But I find the little power adjusting knob on the strobes very difficult to adjust underwater, and the shutter delay on my camera stinks, and it won't focus very close in still mode (a couple of feet, as opposed to an inch or so in video mode). I've only taken it diving one day, three dives, but I found it pretty exasperating to use. I'm not really willing to continue with this type of setup - diving is supposed to be FUN.

My other option is to get an ike housing for my 5d or digital rebel, which WILL do TTL with these strobes. My question for you is, how much easier is it with TTL than with Manual strobes? I'm looking to reduce fuss and bother and chimping.

If I were to use the dSLR with TTL, I think I would set the camera on manual, set the shutter speed on 1/200 or whatever, use aperature to control depth of field, and fire away, and the TTL should more or less do its thing, correctly exposing the "Scene" or "critter" at least some percentage of the time -- regardless of subject distance, level of ambient light, etc? Right? Am I thinking about this right or am I way off track?

Anybody else been through these growing pains? I can't decide whether to move forward with stills or just stick with video. I also know there are lots of other considerations . . . but tell me about TTL.

Thanks!
Taxgeek

 

[Jeff Toorish]

First of all, your video presentation is very good. I watched all of it and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Secondly, the S1, which apparently has a pretty good video mode, suffers from the same digital lag that virutally all small digital cameras have. While they have gotten better in recent years, the short lag can seem like forever when you are missing a great shot.

If you have an EOS 5d, they clearly you know that kind of camera is superior because of its precision focusing and (practically) zero lag.

I've been shooting Canon for decades, been through all of the still film and digital incarnations (except the 5d which I will be picking up soon). My bet is you could set the d5 on pre-pogrammed mode to start and probably get good shots most of the time. If you set the camera on manual, you have to set both aperature and speed, at least in every pro and prosumer camera I have seen. Correct me if I'm wrong, the 5D is the only Canon digital I haven't worked with. But to do what you are considering, you would set to TV mode, I think.

PM me if you'd like. I may have some other ideas for you.

Jeff

 

[alcina]

There aren't many housings out for the 5D at the moment and that may be way more than you want to take underwater anyway. It's a whole lot diffferent to shoot a dslr than a compact - and ttl will be the least of your problems!


There are a few options before housing the dslr, too. Some cameras are faster or focus closer...check out more of the threads here for ideas on where to start. The Canon G6 is said to be a treat!

Ttl certainly has its uses. My current set up does not allow for ttl and if it did, I doubt I would use it. I didn't find manual strobes to be too difficult - especially with digital where the mantra is shoot, review, adjust, shoot, review, adjust - repeat. It only took a few frames to get dialed in for the right strobe power.

I am not clear what exact problems you are having shooting the strobes in manual? Perhaps posting an example or giving more details would help us help you more.

As for the slowness of taking the shots, that's something you need to overcome with any non-dslr. Some are better than others. I use the Olympus 5050 and she's a slow girl. But I use the time to think, recompose, adjust settings, think. Is it frustrating? It drove me crazy at the beginning. But now it rarely freaks me out. Do I miss shots - probably. But I have developed better photo and diving techniques to get the most out of the system and to minimize its downsides.

Everything takes some getting used to so maybe it's just the sudden switch.

I am surprised that the camera will not focus as close in macro still mode as it will in video mode - that just seems weird to me.

 

[Taxgeek]

Hi to both of you, and thanks.

The thing I found frustrating was that I was basically shooting blind - shoot, look at histogram, clumsily fiddle with strobe power knobs (they're not the easiest in gloves, maybe I can get the knob heads changed out to something easier to grab), shoot again, fiddle again, etc.

I came out with lots of completely black shots and lots of way blown out shots, and a few borderline shots, but no "just right" shots. It was so frustrating - I couldn't even get a good shot of a stupid starfish!

Maybe once you get the hang of it, you can guess what strobe power, but I still felt it was really difficult to actually change the power at all. The little knob was really hard to turn with one hand. I'm just uncomfortable this guessing thing - topside I use Av, and can rely on the camera's meter. If TTL worked fairly well, taking the guesswork out of the equation, I might perservere and get a housing. Otherwise, I guess I'll just sell the strobes. :frown:

(I know the focus (and a lot of other things) would be waaaaay better on the slr, as well as guessing how much strobe power, since my distance to subject would be more fixed based on what lense I was using - the S1 has a 10x zoom, so I'm usually all over the place in terms of subject distance.) But if I'm still going to have to guess at exposure . . . I'd rather play with video.

Thanks.
Taxgeek

 

[bobf]

Some have put cable ties around the power level knobs on YS 90 DX strobes for better grip with gloves.

Not sure if you're going to achieve TTL with a YS 90 DX and a dSLR in an Ikelite housing any time soon. Typically you need an Ikelite DS series substrobe to achieve TTL with Ikelite housings. But that may change some day................

Arbitrarily setting the shutter speed to 1/200 sec negates all background exposure control. If you prefer a darker background you may need a faster speed. If you stop down for maximum DOF, you may need a slower speed, one that allows for more ambient light to pass through the lens. It all depends on the water clarity you shoot in and your goal. But ambient light, the available light that is going to expose any part of the composition that is not in direct contact with the light from the strobe, is controlled by both aperture setting and shutter speed.

I know it may not be easy (it's always a lot easier for me to say this stuff while I'm nice and toasty at my keyboard than in actual use) , but try zooming with your fins as opposed to your 10x zoom lens.....less water between your lens and the subject is always preferable.

You may possibly achieve your goal of TTL today by adding Matthias Heinrichs' digital adapter to a sync cord attached to your present strobes and camera. Verify with Matthias though for confirmation:

http://www.heinrichsweikamp.net/blitz/indexe.htm

hth,
b

 

[alcina]

taxgeek -

There may be some relatively "easy" ways to start getting good shots. #1 as bob said - get closer. Strobes have definite ranges where their light is useful. Try to get within six feet of your subject as a starting point. Closer is better, of course.

#2 may be a follow on to #1...skip the zoom. I believe zooms underwater are quite useful, however, you have to use them keeping in mind the amount of light you are producing or have available. Zoom isn't really for bringing far away subjects closer - it's more for fine tuning framing and giving those skittish creatures a little personal space. So, get closer.

Once you are getting closer and shooting from within this range, you should find that strobe power is going to be easier to determine. If you think you are on the edge of where your strobe can effectively fill, boost the power up. If you are pretty much where you think you are going to get good coverage, maybe start in the middle of the power range. If you are right on top of something, cut the power back. I often take a "test" shot when I drastically change distances (like from superclose up to four feet away) and/or when the background is going to be very different (into a ledge on the reef or into blue water). This helps me look at not only the output but the angle.

Especially useful if you are trying to approach something skittish or engaging in a behaviour you don't want to interrupt. I stand off, take a test shot, adjust and then move in for my shot(s). This let's me approach with less movement that might scare things off and also gives me a reasonably good chance at capturing something right the first time...or only having to make minor adjustments for the next shot!

Gloves and knobs can be tricky...let us know if you find a solution as I am sure there are lots of others out there with similar problems!

Don't give up yet!

 

[RonFrank]

But I have never used it UW :11:

However my experience is that what works on the surface, works UW. With the 5D you may have a serious issue finding a housing that supports TTL .

I agree with the posters who suggest that setting a strobe manually is not all that difficult. With the histogram, life is better.

If you can find a housing that supports E-TTL, that is the way to go.

As for stills, it's a LOT different than video. So expect some frustration. However, TTL works very well (keep in mind that close subjects can get overexposed as flash is MUCH more powerful vs. a video stobe) still it's definately the way to go.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Ikelite will have a housing in late November with TTL for the D5.

 

[ssra30]

I think you are going to be out of luck with TTL with dSLR with Sea and Sea strobes.
I don't know much about Heinrich coverter but heard that they will work with Olympus and Nikon. Does he have a version for Canon eTTL?
As far as I know, Ikelite housing with Ikelite DS strobes are probably the easiest way to go. Saying that, I am not sure that it is absolutely neccessary.
I only shoot manual underwater and don't find it a big deal. I don't change strobe power as often and tend to adjust shutterspeed and f-stop more frequently.
Generally my strobes are on half power most of the times so I can get faster recycle speed for multiple sequential shots.
With instant feedback, after awhile, you should develop a pretty good feel for the camera setting that you need for the type of shots that you do.
I find more often than not, the incorrect exposure is due to improper strobe placements and no TTL will fix that!

 

[whitehead]

TTL works well but within a set of parameters. It wont just capture a scene automatically giving you perfect exposure unless you use it within the parameters its designed for. It is good for macro whereby you are working within fixed distance variants but it cannot do many things (i.e. it will not increase your strobe power if shooting too far away you still have to set the aperture to the required parameter, it will generally fail if you have a lot of white, or a lot of black in the shot also, its crap for wide angle generally). PLEASE don't take this the wrong way but you just need time with your current setup to learn how to use it better. I know its a pain, I know I have been there, but the end result will be better.

I currently have 5 strobe setups. Subal/Nik TTL, Sealux/Nik double TTL, 2 x SnS 90 manual and 2 x SnS 350 manual, 2 x SnS 30 manual.... and what do I use, the first two SnS sets, one set for macro and the other for WA (I am still learning WA and am not very successful with it thus far). Once you have mastered them they are great.

I still use TLL intermittently BUT am dialling EV correction, based on the colors in the shot (esp with white or black), on many many shots. Pretty much like manual adjustment!

Your best bet IMHO, if you really want to do stills, is house the DSLR, then you can choose TTL or Manual with your SnS DXs.


Paul