How many dives should your really do b4 you start a course?

[radagalf]

because my fellow instructor and I were discussing this very thing earlier tonight. Needless to say, we came up with these numbers:
50 to start DM
100 to finish DM
200 to ENTER IDC
200 to attend IE

I think a big sticking point with me is that I see so many people who do 'bounce' dives to log their 100 during their IDC so as to be able to have the required number of dives. Myself, I did one extra bounce dive to get my hundred, and I now look back and think why did I bother? What did I learn on that dive - how to cheat the system and thats about it. (On a side note, it was a useless dive as I had 102 entering my IE, 101 without the bounce).

I think that boosting these numbers would really help people realize that diving is about going out and DOING the sport, and not just getting training in it.

As to previous comments, yes I do believe that some people catch on faster and can make it with the way the requirements are currently; do we have to lower our standards for these people? I am sure they will be able to log 50 dives with no problem if it was raised and be that much better and competent underwater.

 

[FrenchAngel]

in a lot of cases, new divers depend on DMs for a whole variety of things - I think I would have a more warm and fuzzy feeling if I knew that DM had 100-200 dives under his/her belt. If they only had a few more than me.... I just dont know...

 

[jviehe]

That is probably too few, and in fact she should have had more before going to AOW, Rescue. advanced classes build on the skills of early classes, and you cant perfect those skills without experience. I dont like when people go straight from OW to AOW, or rescue. 20 dives to DM is ludicrous. Im at 70, and about to take rescue, and probably will do DM around 100. I took AOW around 50, and Cavern around 40.

 

[RichLockyer]

radagalf once bubbled...
I think a big sticking point with me is that I see so many people who do 'bounce' dives to log their 100 during their IDC so as to be able to have the required number of dives.

This brings up an excellent point.
Total bottom time would be another answer, but even that can be cheated on by doing a bunch of pool dives.
A combination of depth/time would solve most "cheating" problems... and another thing that I think should apply to ALL training qualifications, be it DM, IDC, AOW, or Tech, is that class dives or training dives should not be allowed to count.

The point in having a certain number of dives is to ensure that the candidate has the experience required to safely perform once the class is completed.
Class dives are learning experience, not truly experience dives.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

dazle once bubbled...
Howdy

You can do your aow with 4 dives, your rescue anytime, start your DM on 20 and INST with 60 (that 1 might differ).

Now there's a lot in this, but let's stick with DM. The reason for my curiosity on this subject is that I was chatting to a girl last night that's done her OW, AOW, EFR and Rescue in the past 2 weeks. In 2 days she wants to go pro and is starting the DM. She's only got 14 logged dives and is gonna rack 6 up to make the start official.

Now, it's great for people to study and educate themselves in diving but the number of dives and the time between becoming cert seems a bit dodgy to me for pro level.

What do you think??? I know this thread ideally relates to DM/INST's but chip in your penny's worth if you can be arsed.

Vote on the poll if you think that 20 dives is ok/not ok for starting a DM course

I think 100 dives for DM would be nice. That way you can actually give some great advice with actual experience.

You can NOW become a NAUI instructor with 50 dives.

 

[Scottri]

I am a working DM and from my perspective you should 100 dives to START DM. Those 100 dives should be at different locations, different conditions, shallow, deep, night and have a lot of navigation experience.

I help train some of our DM's and the ones that come straight through take a lot more time than someone with a lot more experience. We won't pass them until they are ready and we feel comfortable with their skills, abilities and judgement.

We have people that are certified DM's and want to work with us and we pretty much put them through an internship again to evaluate them before we turn them loose.

I think 20 dives to start is just plain not enough. At 20 dives you are just learning the fundamentals. At 50 you get pretty decent. At 100 you stop diving for your self and learn to start paying attention to what is happening around you.

I think 200 should be the minimum to start IDC.


Scott

 

[DiverBuoy]

PADI requires:

20 dives to start Rescue
40 dives to start DM (60 to get DM certification)
100 dives to start IDC

One can debate these numbers extensively (looking at each dive and what it contains and the scope of experience and exposure and the goals of each subsequent class in the educational system) - BUT these numbers can only loosely be based on reality. Why? because each person and each circumstance is different. To have any business at all in diving a company like PADI must create some standards some Guidelines (or follow them from an official body) and hold everyone to it - so numbers must be created.

That said, certain individuals will never be qualified to be instructors after hundreds or perhaps thousands of dives. Just because the minimum dive standards say you can does not justify your enrolling. I think a more important set of questions for people who desire to continue their diving education would be the following:

• Do I need more dives under my belt before I'm of the right mind set, skills, and maturity to take my rescue class and make it count?
• I'm I ready now that I have 40 dives to begin a Divemaster Course?
• Am I fully preparred and practiced to be 100% confident that I can ACE an IDC course?
• Have I spoken with a mentor and at least one more experienced diving buddy and received a fair evalutation of my skills and readiness for more advanced education?

If you answered NO to any of the above the minimums aren't right for YOU - PERIOD.

 

[MB_diver]

So, what are we really talking about? 20 dives for dm 60 for inst. Hum, I am an ow diver. I dive regularly in Monterey (150+ over three years). I judge each individual diver based on what I see they can do not based on their cert. If you say you’re a DM great, If I have to rescue you, you won't hear the end of it. I know many people who have advanced quals who I consider good divers and many more who I stay away from. Every year several divers get themselves killed in MB. Most are labeled DM or Inst.’s. Were they bad divers? Did they get their certs to fast? I cannot judge that. I have rescued many people and helped many people from rough situations. Everyone who dives with me (so far) wants to dive with me again. Of about 300 +/- dives under my belt, most are in MB, some are warm water (T-shirt and shorts), some are socal, some are at night, some are from my navy days, etc. Just because someone is a DM or inst. quailed doesn’t mean they are a good diver. It really doesn’t matter how many dives they have. My Step mom has been diving for over 30 years almost all in MB. She has DM /inst. but relies on me when we dive because of the extra help I provide her, same with most everyone I dive with. If people have trouble getting into or out of the water, or sometimes get uncomfortable entering / exiting the water but otherwise are great once under and diving, does that make them bad divers too! Should they even get a cert? I think you can assume too much with certifications. PADI has one for night diving for example, does this mean without it I should only dive during the day? I got my driver’s lic. during the day, but I do drive at night. Does this too matter? It is all perspective (PADI put another dollar in) is true because they are in it to make money, however if one feels they need the extra boost in self confidence to focus their abilities great, its there money and their time. If it’s 20 dives, 50, or even 500, it doesn’t matter. If I do 500 dives in my swimming pool am I a great diver! I dive with fun people and if need be, I make up the difference because they are fun people under and out of the water. So, if you have someone with 60 dives and is DM /Inst. Certified and you have no problems with their diving ability great! If on the other hand they are a diving accident waiting to happen use your own judgment but let me know first who they are so I can get out of their way!

Just dive, be safe for you, have fun and enjoy what you can when you can!

 

[DiverBuoy]

MB_diver once bubbled...
Every year several divers get themselves killed in MB. Most are labeled DM or Inst.’s.

I also come from the bay area and have dove in MB, and I am an instructor. I am interested in an exact link or article or report that I can lookup (don't just reply DAN cause it wont verify what you claim). Please provide that direct information in a follow-up post.

 

[ScubaRon]

Divemaster has 2 different meanings in Scubaland:

- it is a PADI (and others) certification level and 20 dives plus Rescue diver certification is the minimum PADI requirement.

- it is also a job title of the guide or dive leader.

The 2 are not necessarily related, e.g. there is no law that states that a dive guide must have a divemaster certification. However most of the time and especially in the US (liability and insurance...) and with agency certified dive centers you will find that most guides are divemaster certified.

As to your question. I see no issue with a person with only 20 dives and a few months/weeks experience taking a DM course. It is a good course and helps to make a person a better and more responsible diver. As for having that new DM-certified person (who now has about 32 dives...) assisting in training and guiding dives: absolutely not!

However as a self-regulated industry it is up to the dive centers to ensure that the persons performing the DM-job not only have the right certification, but also the right experience and -very important- the right attitude and mindset.
ScubaRon
PADI Divemaster