How many divers

[mathauck0814]

For any of you that have knowledge of such things - how many divers does it take for a boat trip to make sense? Obviously it depends on the boat/fuel consumption/crew level and how far you're going. I had a local SD boat cancel both of my trips this weekend when "not enough people signed up". In looking they had 6 people signed up for one trip and 5 for another (boat maxes at 16). Both trips were local enough... so is $600ish not enough to break even on a 10 minute boat ride and having a captain go out?

I know some operations who will go with as few as two divers (on some reasonably large boats) so are those operators just more willing to take a bath on a trip in order to gain the reputation of being reliable and always going out or is it possible that the margins are just that all over the place? Maybe it's just Christmas and they didn't feel like going out on a half empty boat and preferred to stay home with their families...

Anyway... looks like it's shore diving for us this weekend!

 

[TMHeimer]

I've had trips cancelled for the same reason. Most charters I've done will go out with 6, 4 being iffy.

 

[boulderjohn]

This topic is very much a sore point for me. Living as I do in Colorado, I know very much what it means to plan your one destination dive trip of the year. If you are a local diver and miss a day because not enough people showed up, it isn't that big a deal. If you traveled thousands of miles at great expense for those few days of diving, it is a very big deal indeed. I can't say that it has happened a huge number of times in my life, but it has happened often enough to make it a pet peeve. I have thus become quite careful about dive operators, and if I am going to be in an area where I have had an operator cancel for this reason (as I will all of February), I will not book with that operator unless I am forced to by circumstances (which has happened). I will also try to ascertain ahead of time what the odds are of a trip being canceled, and I will try to have a backup plan if it looks iffy.

I believe dive operators should feel an obligation to make their cancellation policies very clear, and I also think that if they do have to cancel, they should feel an obligation to help you find an alternative. I was once in Belize during low season when a trip was canceled for this reason. When it happened again the next day, the operator got me on another boat that was going out. He should have done that the first day, too.

 

[k ellis]

the policy depends on a great number of factors. Operatin a boat is no cheap or easy task despite how it appears. Unlike taking a bass boat to the lake for the weekend most dive boats are designed to be powerful (May have to fight against fairly large swells) and if its designed to accommodate 16 divers one would imagine carrying 32 tanks and then 32 divers at an average weight of say 180 lbs plus the crew and the weight of the fuel itself. when you figure in all the weight the boats carrying then add that to the gross weight of the boat itself the engines will require alot of power and thus require alot of fuel!

Now if its a diesel powered boat one can imagine how much that cost to get to the point of diving. 10 minutes = how much in fuel for a particular boat. Then add in the cost of the inevitable maintenance and the cost of renting the slip and staffing both the boat and any shore/shop crew that you may need and it really adds up fast.

Now I will say this and I wont use the name of the shop that cancelled for obvious reasons of respect. I was planning a trip to Hawaii for well over 6 months in advance. It was for a cruise so it had a window opporunity that allowed just 1 two tank dive. so when I was on the cruise within Hawaiian waters I received a phone call from the shop I had booked in advance with stating they were not going out for the reason of not enough divers. I then turned to a diveshop I had previously had a less then perfect (But still great) experience with. to my amazement they happily booked me onto a boat and it was away we went. Turned out there were 6 divers on this boat that took around 45 minutes to get to the dive site with. The crew was very friendly and was talking to me. When I asked how they were able to afford it the Captain told me that the owner banks his profits in the prime season so that when we had a down day he still would send out the boat to satisfy the customer. He told me if one person booked the trip and it was promised then the trip would go trough even at a loss. He did tell me by the way that though he did not do the financial aspect he was certain the shop was taking a loss. I asked him how he felt about it and he stated to me diving was his life and he loved to share it with customers.

 

[mathauck0814]

Reading further into their policies, they do state an 8 diver minimum. So regardless of how I feel about it, they're well within their policies to cancel. I'm not mentioning the boat because I really do enjoy diving with them, it just sort of sprung to mind that they ought to be able to break even on such a small trip with a handful of divers aboard. No worries, always next weekend!

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

the policy depends on a great number of factors. Operatin a boat is no cheap or easy task despite how it appears. Unlike taking a bass boat to the lake for the weekend most dive boats are designed to be powerful (May have to fight against fairly large swells) and if its designed to accommodate 16 divers one would imagine carrying 32 tanks and then 32 divers at an average weight of say 180 lbs plus the crew and the weight of the fuel itself. when you figure in all the weight the boats carrying then add that to the gross weight of the boat itself the engines will require alot of power and thus require alot of fuel!

Now if its a diesel powered boat one can imagine how much that cost to get to the point of diving. 10 minutes = how much in fuel for a particular boat. Then add in the cost of the inevitable maintenance and the cost of renting the slip and staffing both the boat and any shore/shop crew that you may need and it really adds up fast.

Now I will say this and I wont use the name of the shop that cancelled for obvious reasons of respect. I was planning a trip to Hawaii for well over 6 months in advance. It was for a cruise so it had a window opporunity that allowed just 1 two tank dive. so when I was on the cruise within Hawaiian waters I received a phone call from the shop I had booked in advance with stating they were not going out for the reason of not enough divers. I then turned to a diveshop I had previously had a less then perfect (But still great) experience with. to my amazement they happily booked me onto a boat and it was away we went. Turned out there were 6 divers on this boat that took around 45 minutes to get to the dive site with. The crew was very friendly and was talking to me. When I asked how they were able to afford it the Captain told me that the owner banks his profits in the prime season so that when we had a down day he still would send out the boat to satisfy the customer. He told me if one person booked the trip and it was promised then the trip would go trough even at a loss. He did tell me by the way that though he did not do the financial aspect he was certain the shop was taking a loss. I asked him how he felt about it and he stated to me diving was his life and he loved to share it with customers.

Weight of the divers / tanks has very little to do with the fuel consumption of displacement hulls, even semi-displacement hull when throttled down. Small planning hull boats are more sensitive to the load.
That said, boats are not cheap to operate, BOAT=Break Out Another Thousand (and that's for small boats), just the repair cost is scary never mind fuel.

I had a few talks with some friendly captains on the subject as I got cancelled on 4 times this year (1 mechanical, 1 weather, 2 not enough divers). I has not a happy camper. Anyway, they told me if the boat is less than 1/2 full, they are loosing money. The only reason they continue to go out with less than 1/2 load is because if the cancel too often, then the customers stop using them as their primary boat. Its a fine line and many of these operations are hanging on by the skin of their teeth.

BTW: When I do go out on one of my dive ops that is loaded light, I double my tip as long as the crew is decent. Least I can do to make it worthwhile.
I do also now always make a backup dive plan, I failed to to that on my Florida trip and was very frustrated

 

[k ellis]

BTW: When I do go out on one of my dive ops that is loaded light, I double my tip as long as the crew is decent. Least I can do to make it worthwhile.
I do also now always make a backup dive plan, I failed to to that on my Florida trip and was very frustrated

You know I have always been one that tipped according to service. I have had bad service with no tip and great service which I have tipped up to 50 dollars once. That being said I think everyone should remember while divemasters often do their job for the fun of diving remember having fun does not pay their bills. If you trully had a great time people then help them out for their exhaustive efforts (Yes alot goes on before you arrive and after you leave) to ensure you have the best dive possible.

Thank you Grumpyoldguy for bringing that point up!

 

[cbm32]

I will not take a position on what any operator should or shouldn't do. I will only say that I have been very lucky so far and every operator that has confirmed a trip for me has gone out on that trip. On my recent trip to Fiji that actually resulted in my being the only paying diver on the boat several times. It was a lengthy trip and so I gave each of the operators that ended up doing this the chance to cancel. One told me that if they say a trip is confirmed they go out unless it is a weather problem. They feel that the loss on the few trips they end up losing money on is a small price to pay for the good word of mouth advertising that it generates for them to do so. This was a dive op only and not one that is affiliated or housed in a resort. Another one was housed at a resort and I had purchased an unlimited dive package. I was diving three times a day and after a while I told them I was feeling guilty about having the boat go out every afternoon with just me on board. Their response was that they sold me the package with the understanding that the boat would go out three times a day and so they had no problem sending the boat out three times a day even if I was the only one going all three times. They went on to say that many people buy that package and dive very little and so it will even out over time.

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

I guess it depends on the operating cost of the trip, including duration, thus affecting wages for crew and amount of fuel used, and probably on whether you are doing a one time thing or are going out with them multiple times.

I've been on trips in Costa Rica during the low season where there were only 2 divers for almost the whole week of diving. When we had 3 or 4 divers, they would go far out to Catalina Island, but when it was 2 people, we went to the volcanic pinnacles that was probably 1/3-1/2 as far out (and the boat captain was fishing for food on the side), and when we went back to the shop and rinsed up, the additional 2 people in the shop closed up because we were the only customer for the day. Can't imagine they make any money on the cost of 4 dives, but I guess the more busier times averages out with the less busy times.

 

[ScubaBB]

But aside of all the policies and economical factors, it is still a pity when you have planned a boatdive and the boat is not going.