How does your flat trim feel?

[mtbrider]

I'd just like to comment on a slight pet peeve of mine with GUE standards.. Trim is one of the metrics for "passing" the fundies class; however there are many instances when going out of trim is entirely the best thing to do. When moving gas around in the suit, or for changing depth by swimming up or down. What if the walls of the cave are not horizontal? Like a square peg in a round hole.

Trim is important when swimming because the additional drag for bad trim can be enormous. Also reasonably good trim for ascending allows for better off-gassing and a more controlled ascent.

At least in my fundies class the weighting on perfect trim seemed too heavy. I have also heard where other people have had perfect trim beat into them in fundies only to go onto cave 1 where it was not near as big of a deal.

 

[Mike Edmonston]

I have also heard where other people have had perfect trim beat into them in fundies only to go onto cave 1 where it was not near as big of a deal.

I don't really understand this! I'm not advocating that you need perfect trim everywhere in everyway etc... BUT given the conditions in a cave, I personally think that it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO, other than not losing sight of the line! Bad trim leads to damaged caves and silt-outs. Silt-outs lead to more damaged caves, and possible deaths. Your death leads to more damaged caves by rescue/recovery teams getting your Butt out of there. By keeping good trim, you can eliminate alot of potential problems, not to mention keeping the caves from being DESTROYED!

I'm not coming down on you mtbrider, I am just VERY protective towards the caves. Almost fanatical about it actually :death2::death2:

Cheers

 

[mtbrider]

I don't really understand this! I'm not advocating that you need perfect trim everywhere in everyway etc... BUT given the conditions in a cave, I personally think that it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO, other than not losing sight of the line! Bad trim leads to damaged caves and silt-outs. Silt-outs lead to more damaged caves, and possible deaths. Your death leads to more damaged caves by rescue/recovery teams getting your Butt out of there. By keeping good trim, you can eliminate alot of potential problems, not to mention keeping the caves from being DESTROYED!

I'm not coming down on you mtbrider, I am just VERY protective towards the caves. Almost fanatical about it actually :death2::death2:

Cheers

I imagine that it is all relative. On one cavern tour I saw a guy down there with a huge SMB (in a cave, LOL) and spool, cave line unraveling everywhere, sculling with his hands, a nice terrible flutter kick, bad trim, etc., etc. Talk about a nightmare.

When I say the instructors wanted "perfect trim" I don't think I am exaggerating much if any. I am sure the standards held by the cave 1 instructors were more than adequate and likely tighter than other agencies.

 

[ae3753]

In OW, it's horizontal trim. In Caves, it's trim in relationship to the terrain. It's still trim though.

Regarding the OP, flat trim is an active position for me. If I'm pressing flat, chest down, head back, and knees up I'm usually there. It's when I relax I know that I'm cruising at an angle.

 

[mtbrider]

In OW, it's horizontal trim. In Caves, it's trim in relationship to the terrain. It's still trim though.

Regarding the OP, flat trim is an active position for me. If I'm pressing flat, chest down, head back, and knees up I'm usually there. It's when I relax I know that I'm cruising at an angle.

I could make the point that it still depends, for example ascending/descending a pit section of a cave you would likely want to be horizontal if room allowed; I know what you mean.

I'm parroting a bit of what AG has said in the past. He said that above all a thinking diver is important and not someone who becomes so focused on some metric that other more important variables are ignored.

 

[GUEdiver]

Keep these things in mind with regards to trim:

- (as stated before) there are lots of techniques for monitoring your position: buddies, video, mirrors and flat surfaces when practicing, etc. Many people feel different things depending on their kit and exposure suit. A vigilant buddy is your best immediate feedback. I just had a Fundamentals student who swore he was flat until he saw his head-down position on video. He then easily corrected it and learned what "flat" felt like to him in that particular suit and tank set.

- Flat trim is your goal because it gives you control of movement, more resistance up and down (hence better buoyancy), and better streamlining forward and backward. True, there are times in specific situations/environments when you come out of trim on purpose, for a reason. Such as manuevering through coral pinnacles, negotiating a particular passage in a cave, etc. I'll bet that is ok by 95% of instructors, regardless of agency, again, provided you are doing it on purpose for a good reason. Being out of trim for no good reason, lack of understanding, poor technique, laziness, etc. is what we want to avoid in order to make a diver successful in the future.

- The goal in a Fundamentals class is to give you the tools and techniques to maintain flat trim. And you are pushed to stay in that position during the entire class because it builds good habits and muscle memory. Your body learns that flat trim is its default position, which pays big dividends in more challenging situations when you have to handle other things (task loading, problem resolution). Flat trim should be automatic when you have learned the tricks and have had proper coaching.

In the end, look at the big picture. If you are a stable, controlled diver with good buoyancy and trim, you can accomplish much more and have more fun in your diving pursuits, which is our common goal, yes?

 

[Adobo]

I'd just like to comment on a slight pet peeve of mine with GUE standards.. Trim is one of the metrics for "passing" the fundies class; however there are many instances when going out of trim is entirely the best thing to do. When moving gas around in the suit, or for changing depth by swimming up or down. What if the walls of the cave are not horizontal? Like a square peg in a round hole.

Trim is important when swimming because the additional drag for bad trim can be enormous. Also reasonably good trim for ascending allows for better off-gassing and a more controlled ascent.

At least in my fundies class the weighting on perfect trim seemed too heavy. I have also heard where other people have had perfect trim beat into them in fundies only to go onto cave 1 where it was not near as big of a deal.

Uuuh... never mind. Whatever the GUE dude said.

 

[ae3753]

Yes, GUEdiver said it well.

Just for the record, I never advocated that you have to be in flat trim 100% of the time. As those how dive with me in OW can attest, I'm generally swimming at a slight angle.

I'm sure there are pictures of me floating around on the internet that proves this point. And there are videos of GUE instructors and WKPP divers doing similar.

Being in "perfect" trim is just one of many tools in diving. However, you have to know how to get in the position in order to use it.

 

[beachhead]

What destroys my trim is when my calves are towards my butt (acute angle). Got to have it right or oblique angled.

Is being a little light make you nose dive?