How do Local dive shops stay afloat?

[hardhat]

Well the real reality is that if every one was to buy off the web and the LDS goes under then every one that dives will not have any one around to show them how to maintain their gear, show them how to use their gear properly, service their gear, provide warranties, and the biggest reason you don't want to see anything happen to your LDS is where would you get you air fills from? I'm pretty sure the bulk of divers wouldn't want to put the money out to buy and maintain a compressor. Something else to keep in mind is that most of the manufacturers will not give a factory warranty on gear purchased off the internet. As far as I've heard most of the online stores won't do anything to help you out with your gear you've bought from them if you have a problem with it. So by all means buy off the internet if you don't see any value in having a local dive shop.

 

[Wayward Son]

Everyone always comes back to "air fills", but it is a bit more than that.

Most of us do not know how to properly service regs & such. Of course, we can mail them off & hope the place we send them does a good job.

Tanks need more than fills. They need annual VIP's. They need 5 year hydros. Buy a compressor & fill your own. VIP's are easily enough done without a lot of tools, most folks can learn how to do them properly. But you still need to hydro them, dunno how many want to set up to do that at home.

My main LDS does all manner of things. Often without charging me. If I drop buy with a reg that hisses out the 2nd stage when pressurized, he'll get it on his bench, fix the problem & hand it back to me while I wait. Did it a few months ago. No charge.

They may or may not have the exact suit I want in stock. But they normally have enough selection that I can try some on & we can make a better choice when ordering one for me. And if that one doesn't fit, they'll handle it & get a different suit in. Ditto a BC, or whatever.

They have an air station that would cost an easy $50,000 to build, if I tried to duplicate it. I can get air, nitrox banked at 32%, or custom filled to what I want, or trimix, whatever I need. And if the tank they fill for me has a valve fail & leak, they will pull the valve, fix it, and fill the tank. Happened last november. All they charged me was for one nitrox fill and about $8.00 in parts for the valve.

A shop like this is worth something to me as a customer. I can't afford to get gouged, but the extra service, skills & knowledge this shop has does make it worth it to me if I pay a bit more sometimes. And they do make their best effort to be competetive on prices. They know the net is out there & do their best to work with that fact.

If you find a shop near you like this one, enjoy it. I do think this place is exceptional.

 

[redacted]

Well the real reality is that if every one was to buy off the web and the LDS goes under then every one that dives will not have any one around to show them how to maintain their gear, show them how to use their gear properly, service their gear, provide warranties, and the biggest reason you don't want to see anything happen to your LDS is where would you get you air fills from? I'm pretty sure the bulk of divers wouldn't want to put the money out to buy and maintain a compressor. Something else to keep in mind is that most of the manufacturers will not give a factory warranty on gear purchased off the internet. As far as I've heard most of the online stores won't do anything to help you out with your gear you've bought from them if you have a problem with it. So by all means buy off the internet if you don't see any value in having a local dive shop.

That's why I do all my food shopping at the Local 7-11. Because where else would I be able to buy a Slurpee?

If there is sufficient demand, there will be a supplier.

 

[oversea]

Everyone always comes back to "air fills", but it is a bit more than that.

Most of us do not know how to properly service regs & such. Of course, we can mail them off & hope the place we send them does a good job.

Tanks need more than fills. They need annual VIP's. They need 5 year hydros. Buy a compressor & fill your own. VIP's are easily enough done without a lot of tools, most folks can learn how to do them properly. But you still need to hydro them, dunno how many want to set up to do that at home.

My main LDS does all manner of things. Often without charging me. If I drop buy with a reg that hisses out the 2nd stage when pressurized, he'll get it on his bench, fix the problem & hand it back to me while I wait. Did it a few months ago. No charge.

They may or may not have the exact suit I want in stock. But they normally have enough selection that I can try some on & we can make a better choice when ordering one for me. And if that one doesn't fit, they'll handle it & get a different suit in. Ditto a BC, or whatever.

They have an air station that would cost an easy $50,000 to build, if I tried to duplicate it. I can get air, nitrox banked at 32%, or custom filled to what I want, or trimix, whatever I need. And if the tank they fill for me has a valve fail & leak, they will pull the valve, fix it, and fill the tank. Happened last november. All they charged me was for one nitrox fill and about $8.00 in parts for the valve.

A shop like this is worth something to me as a customer. I can't afford to get gouged, but the extra service, skills & knowledge this shop has does make it worth it to me if I pay a bit more sometimes. And they do make their best effort to be competetive on prices. They know the net is out there & do their best to work with that fact.

If you find a shop near you like this one, enjoy it. I do think this place is exceptional.

IMO, if all dive shops were as you described, the internet would become a losing venture. But the reality is that these shops are few and far between. I have recently found a shop as you have mentioned and am very happy with them.

 

[Firefyter]

Well the real reality is that if every one was to buy off the web and the LDS goes under then every one that dives will not have any one around to show them how to maintain their gear, show them how to use their gear properly, service their gear, provide warranties, and the biggest reason you don't want to see anything happen to your LDS is where would you get you air fills from?

1. Lots of us already know as much about our gear as some of the LDS employees.

2. The LDS doesn't provide the warranty, the manufacturer does.

3. The gear gets serviced every year or two, and after the bad shops go out of business due to poor customer service, the good ones that are left will pick up this business.


4. Your biggest reason, the air fills, is the most worn out argument there is. The closest LDS to me is 60 miles away, and he's only open a couple hours a day. The next nearest one is 95-100 miles away. I have NO problems getting air fills without going to any of those places. If there is a demand for a product, SOMEONE will fill it, LDS or not.

Something else to keep in mind is that most of the manufacturers will not give a factory warranty on gear purchased off the internet.

Not true. Most DO give warranties, only a few don't such as ScubaPro and Aqualung.

As far as I've heard most of the online stores won't do anything to help you out with your gear you've bought from them if you have a problem with it.

This could be true, all I can speak for is ScubaToys, and their customer service is outstanding. If I ever had a problem, I can call and talk to the owner directly, and he knows how to treat his customers. That being said, I've done business with several LDS's that have left me holding the bag when things went wrong.

So by all means buy off the internet if you don't see any value in having a local dive shop.

I see LOTS of value in an LDS, the problem is that most of them don't see the value in me as a customer. As a business owner, I would be happy to get every dollar I could get, and strive to get more by offering great customer service and competitive pricing. I wouldn't get pissy and run business away forever because someone bought a BC somewhere else. That type of business model will never succeed.

I'll give you an example of an LDS doing it the RIGHT way. A member of this board, Debraw, owns an LDS in Arlington, Texas, almost in ScubaToys backyard. The name of their shop is Surface Interval Scuba. I've never been in their store, but I've met one of their DM's, and I personally know several of their customers. The customers that I know all have wonderful things to say about them, and you can see that they treat their customers like they are appreciated. They also arrange dive trips at what seem to be very competitive prices. I wish that I lived closer, because they run the type of operation I believe WILL succeed. They offer competitive pricing, and great customer service. As it is, they're well over 100 miles from me, so it's not exactly local. However, I have no problem strongly recommending them to anyone based on what I know. THIS is the business model other LDS's need to follow, instead of whining about bad customers. Offer the things SIS does, and you will build a loyal customer base.

Of course, your opinion as a dive shop owner/employee is probably different, but this is what most customers feel.

 

[hardhat]

4. Your biggest reason, the air fills, is the most worn out argument there is. The closest LDS to me is 60 miles away, and he's only open a couple hours a day. The next nearest one is 95-100 miles away. I have NO problems getting air fills without going to any of those places. If there is a demand for a product, SOMEONE will fill it, LDS or not.

Can you trust the air to be clean that you are getting from your buddy down the road. You're lucky if you can.

Not true. Most DO give warranties, only a few don't such as ScubaPro and Aqualung.

Mares, Dacor, Oceanic, and Sherwood will not warranty gear bought over the net. Nor will Bare, and Suunto. Who's left, out of the big manufacturers out there?


This could be true, all I can speak for is ScubaToys, and their customer service is outstanding. If I ever had a problem, I can call and talk to the owner directly, and he knows how to treat his customers. That being said, I've done business with several LDS's that have left me holding the bag when things went wrong.

We constantly see people in the shop I'm at that have bought something off the net, something has gone wrong with it and the seller has left them high and dry. We try to do as much for them as possible, but quite often we cann't do anything for them, despite our relationship with our suppliers, and the manufacturers.



I see LOTS of value in an LDS, the problem is that most of them don't see the value in me as a customer. As a business owner, I would be happy to get every dollar I could get, and strive to get more by offering great customer service and competitive pricing. I wouldn't get pissy and run business away forever because someone bought a BC somewhere else. That type of business model will never succeed.

I agree with you. The thing we get tired of is people coming to the shop finding the gear they want, getting us to size everything for them and then they turn around and buy off the net. We find out about this kind of stuff happening, when we run into that same person you spent two or three hours with at a local dive site and they have all the gear you would have sold them. You ask them who they bought the gear from and they answer they found it on the internet cheaper. But they haven't given you a chance to do something with the pricing to match or at least come close to the price they have found.

 

[redacted]

Not true. Most DO give warranties, only a few don't such as ScubaPro and Aqualung.

Mares, Dacor, Oceanic, and Sherwood will not warranty gear bought over the net. Nor will Bare, and Suunto. Who's left, out of the big manufacturers out there?

I agree with you. The thing we get tired of is people coming to the shop finding the gear they want, getting us to size everything for them and then they turn around and buy off the net. We find out about this kind of stuff happening, when we run into that same person you spent two or three hours with at a local dive site and they have all the gear you would have sold them. You ask them who they bought the gear from and they answer they found it on the internet cheaper. But they haven't given you a chance to do something with the pricing to match or at least come close to the price they have found.

Incorrect on dealers: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/regs/regs.asp
And the list of mfgrs supporting internet sales seems to be growing rapidly. It must be paying off. It surprised me to see Oceanic there.

And if you really want to stop folks using your shop and then buying elsewhere, you could try what Scubatoys does. They price match, eliminating that reason to go elsewhere. When an internet price is $300 for what the LDS has listed at $600 most potential customers would either believe you wouldn't come down enough to make the deal or that you were trying to rip customers off with your list price. And it is hard to find an LDS that advertises its willingness to negotiate prices. It took me quite a while to realize that prices might be negotiable in some shops. In the mean time, Leisure pro got most of my business.

 

[Wayward Son]

Oceanic is a recent addition. They do not simply allow internet sales. Buy Oceanic from Leisurepro and you will NOT have a factory warranty. They only support internet sales done by authorized dealers.

I have a couple of Oceanic Versa Pro II consoles. I bought mine last august & they did not allow any internet sales. I bought my wifes at Christmas & by then, they did. I still bought it from my LDS, but it is nice to see a company working on dealing with the problem in a way that won't undercut the dealers that have played by the rules & gotten them to the level of success they currently enjoy.

 

[Web Monkey]

It's the same thing here in Syracuse, NY. I bought pretty much everything I own at National Aquatic Service with the exception of a couple of SMBs I bought while traveling.

I stopped in the other day at lunch, and dropped off a couple of tanks for a fill. While there, I mentioned that one of my regs was breathing a little hard, and the owner immediately took it over to the bench, checked it, adjusted it, tested it on a flow meter and some sort of breathing machine, and gave it back. After work, I picked up my tanks, and went diving on their boat. The reg was perfect, the tanks were full of my requested Nitrox blend and the dives were great.

When my Smart-Com was recalled, they gave me a free loaner for most of the summer.

They'll do pretty much anything they can to make their customers happy.

I could probably have found a better price somewhere, but I could never have found a better deal.

Terry

Everyone always comes back to "air fills", but it is a bit more than that.

Most of us do not know how to properly service regs & such. Of course, we can mail them off & hope the place we send them does a good job.

Tanks need more than fills. They need annual VIP's. They need 5 year hydros. Buy a compressor & fill your own. VIP's are easily enough done without a lot of tools, most folks can learn how to do them properly. But you still need to hydro them, dunno how many want to set up to do that at home.

My main LDS does all manner of things. Often without charging me. If I drop buy with a reg that hisses out the 2nd stage when pressurized, he'll get it on his bench, fix the problem & hand it back to me while I wait. Did it a few months ago. No charge.

They may or may not have the exact suit I want in stock. But they normally have enough selection that I can try some on & we can make a better choice when ordering one for me. And if that one doesn't fit, they'll handle it & get a different suit in. Ditto a BC, or whatever.

 

[Firefyter]

Can you trust the air to be clean that you are getting from your buddy down the road. You're lucky if you can.

Actually, I trust it as much or more than an LDS's air. It's not luck either, it's caution on my part by making sure it's good.

Mares, Dacor, Oceanic, and Sherwood will not warranty gear bought over the net. Nor will Bare, and Suunto. Who's left, out of the big manufacturers out there?

Again, not entirely true. Mares, Dacor, Oceanic, and Bare will ALL warranty gear bought over the net as long as it's an authorized dealer, such as ScubaToys. I'm not sure about Sherwood, and Suunto is part of the Aqualung family I mentioned before.

We constantly see people in the shop I'm at that have bought something off the net, something has gone wrong with it and the seller has left them high and dry. We try to do as much for them as possible, but quite often we cann't do anything for them, despite our relationship with our suppliers, and the manufacturers.

Understood. This is the prime opportunity to make a customer for life, or run one off forever. I'm glad you try to do as much as possible, that's all anyone can ask. By doing this for me, rather than telling me just to get lost, you would earn a chance to keep my business. This is simply good customer service.

I agree with you. The thing we get tired of is people coming to the shop finding the gear they want, getting us to size everything for them and then they turn around and buy off the net. We find out about this kind of stuff happening, when we run into that same person you spent two or three hours with at a local dive site and they have all the gear you would have sold them. You ask them who they bought the gear from and they answer they found it on the internet cheaper. But they haven't given you a chance to do something with the pricing to match or at least come close to the price they have found.

I agree with you on this one. If I take up your time, and try on your merchandise, I owe you the courtesy of letting you have a chance at my money. This is where I would have used a little salesmanship and told them something like "You know, I would have probably gotten real close to that price if you had given me a chance, and you wouldn't have had to send it off if it needed warranty work. Plus, if I couldn't get close enough, I would have thrown in x amount of free air fills to help make up the difference. I'd appreciate a better shot at your business next time."

We all know air fills don't cost the LDS a whole lot of money each, but they can be a great way to compensate for price differences. The LDS I mentioned in the earlier post sells AL80's for about $45 more than Scubatoys. However, they also throw in a tank boot for that price, in addition to 25 FREE air fills. At the going rate of $5 per fill, that's $125 worth of air. Add to that another $8 to $10 for the boot, and she's giving you $135 back on a $170 purchase, which means the tank only costs $35 dollars in the end. When it's all said and done, she ends up $90 cheaper than ScubaToys. Like I said before, I wish I lived closer than 100 miles away, because this is the kind of customer service and pricing that keeps people coming back.

Again, just a disclaimer. I don't work for, nor have I ever met Debra or her husband. I just admire the way they do business and wish the other LDS's would learn something from them.