How common is this?

[AbyssalPlains]

I think you may be missing half of the equation here. Maybe the base salary doesn't meet with your expectations, but you did say "plus tips". In that scenario, I would have to point out that you have the opportunity to earn as much as you want to and still have the "salary" to fall back on in order to meet your basic needs. Tips can be huge or small depending on if you earn them...but the potential is certainly there - especially in Key Largo.

Tipping instructors????

Where will this end? In the not too far future, will I be expected to tip my insurance agent, the bouncer at the night club, my bank teller?

Tipping deck hands and unpaid divemasters (read shop slaves) for hauling my tanks and handing me my camera rig is one thing, but if I start tipping an instructor who is on salary for teaching me a class that I paid hundreds of dollars for, there is absolutely no reason why I should not tip my university professors, too. 10 percent for each credit unit of class would be a good start, wouldn't it?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Tipping instructors????

Where will this end? In the not too far future, will I be expected to tip my insurance agent, the bouncer at the night club, my bank teller?

Tipping deck hands and unpaid divemasters (read shop slaves) for hauling my tanks and handing me my camera rig is one thing, but if I start tipping an instructor who is on salary for teaching me a class that I paid hundreds of dollars for, there is absolutely no reason why I should not tip my university professors, too. 10 percent for each credit unit of class would be a good start, wouldn't it?

Does your insurance agent make enough to support a family and buy a house? What kind of benefit package does the bank teller have? For what it's worth, if either of them taught me something no one else ever took the time to teach me I would at least offer them lunch or a drink (tip). A Door Man at a Night Club (tittie bars have bouncers) might even make more money than your typical dive instructor, but if he hooked me up in some special way I'd slip him something for his trouble.

I'd be suprized if the typical dive instructor makes half of what the typical university professor makes, and the typical dive instructor has no health insurance and no 401K. An instructor's lucky to be able to afford car insurance and a BK Broiler. In Hawaii, most half decent wait staff make more than dive instructors and hopefully you'd still give the wait staff a tip.

In case you don't even read what you quote, like CajunDiva and emttim have posted many dive instructor job ads end the expected pay sentence with "+ tips", because even college kids learn that dive instructors don't make a sufficient wage from most dive operators! This is not the fault of the dive instructor, it is a matter of supply, demand and economics (see this thread - http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/229291-cheap-bastard-divers.html); the prices divers pay for charters and classes are reasonable because most dive employees are not paid a living wage (even most captains).

There are some independent dive instructors who do not fit this business model, but if they go above and beyond the basic duties of the job they will still get a gratuity from people who get it! Do us a favor, don't come to Hawaii for any dive instruction; not many of us can afford the car insurance without the tips our understanding patrons leave us for a job well done!

 

[Thalassamania]

Professionals do not get tipped. Take your pick, can't have both.

 

[emttim]

Professionals do not get tipped. Take your pick, can't have both.

Your point is made, however, I'd venture to say that someone who is barely able to make rent and is eating top ramen because he/she can't afford anything better probably doesn't give a damn about being a professional or not.

 

[vladimir]

I'd be suprized if the typical dive instructor makes half of what the typical university professor makes, and the typical dive instructor has no health insurance and no 401K. An instructor's lucky to be able to afford car insurance and a BK Broiler. In Hawaii, most half decent wait staff make more than dive instructors and hopefully you'd still give them a tip.

Then why not get a job as a waiter? Because it is not work most people enjoy very much, I guess.

This is not the fault of the dive instructor, it is a matter of supply, demand and economics ... the prices divers pay for charters and classes are reasonable because most dive employees are not paid a living wage (even most captains).

This is at least partly the fault of the instructors and captains because they train for and accept jobs that pay poorly. Otherwise the business model wouldn't work.

Do us a favor, don't come to Hawaii for any dive instruction; not many of us can afford the car insurance without the tips our understanding patrons leave us for a job well done!

Do me a favor, don't expect me to subsidize your dream job. You chose a profession that many people would love and many people are able to do. So there is an ample supply of dive instructors. If you take a job waiting tables (and it sounds like you should consider it) your employer will easily replace you. That is your problem, not mine. When people stop lining up to do the job for meager pay, the pay will improve.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The National Center for Children in Poverty, at Columbia University, has this to say about our Federal Poverty Levels;

Across the country, families on average need an income of about twice the official poverty level, or roughly $40,000 for a family of four, to meet basic needs.

If I apply that concept to the '07 Federal Guidelines for a single person in Hawaii the amount is $23,500 ($11,750x2). Most dive instructors in Hawaii are going to need to do more than instruct diving to make more than that amount. Adding guided diving and selling dive photos or videos is about the only way to make that much without having a non-diving related second job.

Tips are the only way a good majority of the instructors here (and in many similar destinations) manage to stay in the dive business. Threads like this always have responses about how it's better to have a "real job" and just dive for fun, or how most instructors they know just instruct as a hobby, and very few ever argue with those financial facts. Show me any other "professional" who can't afford the basic necessities as a single person with no dependents.

If accepting tips so I can afford car insurance means I can't call myself a professional, I'll gladly not call myself a professional. In one day here on Maui I can personally introduce you to over 30 bellman, bartenders and waiters that are making over $75,000 per year, largely because of the tips. Elliot Spitzer's date in DC was a "Pro", and she gladly accepted the tip!

The word "professional" is a pretty worthless label in this discussion. Growing up as a campus brat, I expect a little more from the lofty academia.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Vlad, your namesake would be proud of your selfish bloodsucking attitude towards the people who are the hardworking backbone of the dive industry. Luckily there are plenty of knowledgeable and generous dive guests to make up for the handful like you that are only concerned with their own wealth.

Both the dive service personal and your fellow charter passengers notice and remember that your cheeks squeak when you walk.

 

[vladimir]

I hate to debate this with you, because I am generally happy to tip. I tipped $600 on my last liveaboard. But constantly getting cajoled for tips by an ever-widening circle of tip-ees is exhausting. And increasingly you get the feeling that it is an obligation--that you're a cheap bastard if you don't tip--rather than a feeling of appreciation, as it traditionally was. And traditionally it was menial workers who were tipped; bellman, bartenders, and waiters. Dive instructors are regarded differently, I think. Your point I guess is that they shouldn't be; perhaps not. But if I was just making ends meet as dive instructor and the bellmen were making $75k, I'd be looking for a bellman's job.

 

[vladimir]

Vlad, your namesake would be proud of your selfish bloodsucking attitude towards the people who are the hardworking backbone of the dive industry. Luckily there are plenty of knowledgeable and generous dive guests to make up for the handful like you that are only concerned with their own wealth.

Both the dive service personal and your fellow charter passengers notice and remember that your cheeks squeak when you walk.

Which namesake would that be, Putin, Lenin, or Nabokov? If there are so many generous dive guests tipping you, why can't you afford a BK Broiler? Or maybe you're doing just fine, but can't pass up an opportunity to try to raise the consciousness of the diver population and wheedle a few more bucks out of them.

 

[Mr.X]

The National Center for Children in Poverty, at Columbia University, has this to say about our Federal Poverty Levels;



If I apply that concept to the '07 Federal Guidelines for a single person in Hawaii the amount is $23,500 ($11,750x2). Most dive instructors in Hawaii are going to need to do more than instruct diving to make more than that amount. Adding guided diving and selling dive photos or videos is about the only way to make that much without having a non-diving related second job.

Tips are the only way a good majority of the instructors here (and in many similar destinations) manage to stay in the dive business. Threads like this always have responses about how it's better to have a "real job" and just dive for fun, or how most instructors they know just instruct as a hobby, and very few ever argue with those financial facts. Show me any other "professional" who can't afford the basic necessities as a single person with no dependents.

If accepting tips so I can afford car insurance means I can't call myself a professional, I'll gladly not call myself a professional. In one day here on Maui I can personally introduce you to over 30 bellman, bartenders and waiters that are making over $75,000 per year, largely because of the tips. Elliot Spitzer's date in DC was a "Pro", and she gladly accepted the tip!

The word "professional" is a pretty worthless label in this discussion. Growing up as a campus brat, I expect a little more from the lofty academia.

Dive instruction isn't a field where you can make easily make a living that comfortably supports a family of four. Asking questions, examining surroundings and listening to the advice of dive pros. prior to being in the business helps. There are numerous road signs along the way that say "caution" low pay ahead. Some road signs might be: why are dive shops selling other gear than scuba?, why are dive instructors often acting like salespeople?, who do instructor trainers/course directors have other jobs? All indicators of a low-profit business.

Even the most hard-working pro., selling gear, vacations, publications, videos can scratch out a living. Perhaps as a manufacturer you can expect a little more, but it's not an industry where there is high demand. Design costs, production, distribution etc., plus having pockets deep enough to start with are hurdles.

When I got into this field some 20 years ago I went in knowing I'd make jack. Even if I was clever and ambitious. Also, I never expected a tip and made it clear to clientele that I was a teaching pro. Save the tips for other folks. This attitude carried over from my prior experiences as a public servant, and being the occasional "academic". BTW - college professorship and college bratdom - low paying stuff. Unless you create a patented process or something.

In short, I wouldn't grouse about the low pay. There were signs I am sure.

Advice:look to vary my income stream from some endeavors that actually pay money, but allow time to pursue scuba instruction as a side venture. That's what I did. As per doormen and bell boys...why are we talking about hotel leeches? I always haul my own luggage. I do tip the maid heartily though. They usually work pretty hard and are usually just trying to make it.

X