ScubaSixString
Contributor
rpodos:
Apparently, unless i misread, there were quite a few offers on things to change....she wouldn't listen. Thought her 3 cards made her a god.....
How Can This Be!
- Thread starter SteveDiver
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Apparently, unless i misread, there were quite a few offers on things to change....she wouldn't listen. Thought her 3 cards made her a god.....
First,
Blaming the diver for getting 4 C-cards is wrong headed. It's the instructor you should be castigating. Most divers usually have NO IDEA what they need to do to "earn" a certification. It's the instructor's fault for dumbing down the courses. You can tell a superior instructor by their students. You can also tell a poor instructors by the lack of skills in their students.
As for NitrOx, most of my OW students earn this at the same time. NAUI not only allows it, but they also encourage it.
Now, that doesn't mean that the lady in question didn't have an "attitude". One of the first signs of incompetence is over confidence. It is also a sign of distress just prior to a dive. Rather than ridicule her (that's what it sounds like from here), you should identify the source of her stress and strive to alleviate it.
Blaming the diver for getting 4 C-cards is wrong headed. It's the instructor you should be castigating. Most divers usually have NO IDEA what they need to do to "earn" a certification. It's the instructor's fault for dumbing down the courses. You can tell a superior instructor by their students. You can also tell a poor instructors by the lack of skills in their students.
As for NitrOx, most of my OW students earn this at the same time. NAUI not only allows it, but they also encourage it.
Now, that doesn't mean that the lady in question didn't have an "attitude". One of the first signs of incompetence is over confidence. It is also a sign of distress just prior to a dive. Rather than ridicule her (that's what it sounds like from here), you should identify the source of her stress and strive to alleviate it.
ScubaSixString
Contributor
NetDoc:
By all means the instructor (s) are to blame. However, to now blame the other divers because they didn't help her, seems a bit short sighted. If we believe the original poster, they tried to help. And she wouldn't listen.
Diver: "Don't look down, look out when you leave the boat"
Diver2:"Ok,"
*Looks down, steps off, loses mask*
Repeats frequently.
Now, from stevediver's responses, it doesn't look like the lass has a monopoly on arrogance, but how many times do you have to have your advice ignored before you move on to another cause?
Yeah the best way to get you to think about pretty pink unicorns is to tell you to NOT THINK ABOUT PRETTY PINK UNICORNS. 
The place to learn the giant stride is in the pool. Trying to merely describe this procedure is bound to produce erroneous results. Some people "get it" right away and some don't.
However, once snickering or overt laughing starts (it NEVER is totally behind their back), the need to save face shows also starts. Add to this a Divemaster YELLING at them over air consumption... AIR CONSUMPTION and we have an environment that fosters this saving face phenomenon.
Again, I first fault the original instructor. Her buddy/planning/entry skills seem to be lacking or non-existant. Possiblyher instructor was as abusive as the DM and if so, I can see that she merely emulated her instructor's attitude.
The problem with giving advice, is that it rarely respects the privacy or dignity of the other person. Start with "I see you are having some difficulties with your giant stride, and I would like to share a few things that my instructor passed on to me..." The response to this question will clue you into a few things. Whether they SEE they have a problem. Maybe they LIKE the face plant!?! Whether they are open to YOU. Whether they are open to ADVICE from you.It is better to show empathy than outright contempt.
Again, owning a card without owning the skills is an instructor problem, not a student problem. Students almost ALWAYS perform to the level of skill required by their instructor.
The place to learn the giant stride is in the pool. Trying to merely describe this procedure is bound to produce erroneous results. Some people "get it" right away and some don't.
However, once snickering or overt laughing starts (it NEVER is totally behind their back), the need to save face shows also starts. Add to this a Divemaster YELLING at them over air consumption... AIR CONSUMPTION and we have an environment that fosters this saving face phenomenon.
Again, I first fault the original instructor. Her buddy/planning/entry skills seem to be lacking or non-existant. Possiblyher instructor was as abusive as the DM and if so, I can see that she merely emulated her instructor's attitude.
The problem with giving advice, is that it rarely respects the privacy or dignity of the other person. Start with "I see you are having some difficulties with your giant stride, and I would like to share a few things that my instructor passed on to me..." The response to this question will clue you into a few things. Whether they SEE they have a problem. Maybe they LIKE the face plant!?! Whether they are open to YOU. Whether they are open to ADVICE from you.It is better to show empathy than outright contempt.
Again, owning a card without owning the skills is an instructor problem, not a student problem. Students almost ALWAYS perform to the level of skill required by their instructor.
cummings66
Contributor
NetDoc:
You're right and many people come off as righteous when they give advice. I tend to go at it from my personal experience as you pointed out.
If you say, when you step off look forwards and not down. You might not get a good response. If you say, that has got to be the hardest skill there is and took me a lot of time to get right, but my instructor gave me this great tip... You know, coat it with honey and be friends to start with you'll find things work out better.
However, I would have concerns if a diver presented these credentials and bragged about having only 6 dives. I'd inquire more and ask them if they meant 6 dives after their certification dives, etc.
As to the giant stride, it's not uncomon to find that that's only done in the pool and not in open water. Many open water checkouts are shore dives in the midwest so it's possible the only strides she ever did was from the side of a pool and not a rocking boat. Add to that stress from a DM telling you that you suck air down, people laughing at you, you just dropped a chunk of change on the fantasy trip and feel you have to do it, it can add up to a situation where she got locked into a defensive mindset and probably would increase her SAC rate making things worse.
OP
SteveDiver
Contributor
We all attempted to talk to her with empathy and with the willingness to help. Like I stated over and over again this lady was not open to suggestion from anyone. Yes the DM yelled at her, how many times was he supposed to repeat himself. Like I said she would not listen to anybody. She thought she was above everyone with her c-cards. Yes we laughed to ourselves big deal. Yes the Instructor is to blame however she is at fault as well by not being open to suggestion. Why assume that we came off as self righteous when offering advise? what a ridiculus statement.
I am sure that you met someone in your lifetime that was great at telling others what to do whom you could not tell nothing because they knew it all.
We as a group came to the determination that there is no talking to her and that we would make a collaborative effort to ensure that we ALL watched her when she was diving in case she needed help.
From the **** I am getting from some of the posters I am thinking maybe we should not have attempted to help her or keep our eyes on her. After all, I as well as the others paid good money for the trip.
If I am such of a insensitive piece of **** and ridiculed this lady do you think we would be discussing this? No, we all attempted to help and we watched her to make sure that she did not get into any danger.
It is comical how some people chime into the group and offer an opinion or statement without reading prior posts.... Some of you are quick to point out the alleged faults of another. Good thing this lady was not stuck on the boat with some of you that are quick to judge.
I am sure that you met someone in your lifetime that was great at telling others what to do whom you could not tell nothing because they knew it all.
We as a group came to the determination that there is no talking to her and that we would make a collaborative effort to ensure that we ALL watched her when she was diving in case she needed help.
From the **** I am getting from some of the posters I am thinking maybe we should not have attempted to help her or keep our eyes on her. After all, I as well as the others paid good money for the trip.
If I am such of a insensitive piece of **** and ridiculed this lady do you think we would be discussing this? No, we all attempted to help and we watched her to make sure that she did not get into any danger.
It is comical how some people chime into the group and offer an opinion or statement without reading prior posts.... Some of you are quick to point out the alleged faults of another. Good thing this lady was not stuck on the boat with some of you that are quick to judge.
OP
SteveDiver
Contributor
Quote:
Blaming the diver for getting 4 C-cards is wrong headed. It's the instructor you should be castigating. Most divers usually have NO IDEA what they need to do to "earn" a certification
BULL! The course requirements are well written in ALL of the books as well as the divelog that comes with the books. The required amount of dives for each level is also in the books. It is like going to an admission office and inquiring about a degree then going to the next window and receivieng it. You cannot tell me that she was not aware that something was not adding up. She must of knew something was wrong because she told us that she received her c-cards with only six dives! bragging about it, because she is very smart and catches on quickly.
Blaming the diver for getting 4 C-cards is wrong headed. It's the instructor you should be castigating. Most divers usually have NO IDEA what they need to do to "earn" a certification
BULL! The course requirements are well written in ALL of the books as well as the divelog that comes with the books. The required amount of dives for each level is also in the books. It is like going to an admission office and inquiring about a degree then going to the next window and receivieng it. You cannot tell me that she was not aware that something was not adding up. She must of knew something was wrong because she told us that she received her c-cards with only six dives! bragging about it, because she is very smart and catches on quickly.
cummings66
Contributor
The thing is not that you were a louse, or did anything wrong. I think what's being pointed out by some, and myself is that many people think we're being helpful when in reality we don't realize how sensitive a person is and we're just insulting them.
I have seen it happen where right after the first insult they perceive they shut down entirely, and you didn't even mean an insult. You could have said hi in the wrong tone of voice and that screwed the pooch right there and then. No way to know.
The problem is, we weren't there and have no basis to judge things on, in fact this entire thread is worthless for anything.
What can we learn from it? We have a clueless diver who didn't take advice and acted high and mighty, even to those with better credentials. What is to learn from that, just that this is human nature. We know that your group tried to talk to her and failed, so we don't have a method that worked to learn from.
There just is nothing here we can learn and beyond saying dang, that was some pathetic training she got. We can't change a thing the next time around because we don't know any details to help there. In person there are things that go beyond what we say that affect conversations, you can have an entire conversation without speaking a word with the right person. There have been times in diving when I said take your time gearing up, we want to do it right when my body expressions were saying hurry up you lout... Whether they knew that or not depended on how they are at reading people.
The only thing we can take from this thread is that there is probably a way to reach her, but we will never discover it here because she's not participating here. I think you guys did the right thing by talking to her, I think that you just didn't use the right method. I knew one guy who is a great pilot who would quit flying the plane if you raised your voice. He could not handle it at all, locked up and nearly killed his instructor that way, this was during his multi engine training. Turns out that his Dad was very abusive verbally and when he heard loud voices he'd just retreat into his head. The voices didn't have to be loud either, just have the tone in it his Dad used, from that point forward he quit responding.
That is why I and others have suggested that maybe the method of communications was not right for her. What more can be said? Unless she comes here this is the best that can be said, she goofed up big time, bragged too much, didn't take advice. But why? What could have been done differently? No way to know.
I have seen it happen where right after the first insult they perceive they shut down entirely, and you didn't even mean an insult. You could have said hi in the wrong tone of voice and that screwed the pooch right there and then. No way to know.
The problem is, we weren't there and have no basis to judge things on, in fact this entire thread is worthless for anything.
What can we learn from it? We have a clueless diver who didn't take advice and acted high and mighty, even to those with better credentials. What is to learn from that, just that this is human nature. We know that your group tried to talk to her and failed, so we don't have a method that worked to learn from.
There just is nothing here we can learn and beyond saying dang, that was some pathetic training she got. We can't change a thing the next time around because we don't know any details to help there. In person there are things that go beyond what we say that affect conversations, you can have an entire conversation without speaking a word with the right person. There have been times in diving when I said take your time gearing up, we want to do it right when my body expressions were saying hurry up you lout... Whether they knew that or not depended on how they are at reading people.
The only thing we can take from this thread is that there is probably a way to reach her, but we will never discover it here because she's not participating here. I think you guys did the right thing by talking to her, I think that you just didn't use the right method. I knew one guy who is a great pilot who would quit flying the plane if you raised your voice. He could not handle it at all, locked up and nearly killed his instructor that way, this was during his multi engine training. Turns out that his Dad was very abusive verbally and when he heard loud voices he'd just retreat into his head. The voices didn't have to be loud either, just have the tone in it his Dad used, from that point forward he quit responding.
That is why I and others have suggested that maybe the method of communications was not right for her. What more can be said? Unless she comes here this is the best that can be said, she goofed up big time, bragged too much, didn't take advice. But why? What could have been done differently? No way to know.
OP
SteveDiver
Contributor
cummings66:
RonFrank
Contributor
CheckOut dives - 4
AOW Checkout - 5
Nitrox - 2 (maybe done in any of the other classes)
Rescue - 5
Plus she would have to have 4 additional dives to complete Rescue.
The simple fact is that she could not have been rescue trained without more diving, at least under PADI. Actually under SSI or NAUI she could be rescue trained with as little as 9 dives I believe.
Verifiying certs are easy, at least a PADI cert. It can be done online, or with a quick phone call.
However if she was on a live aboard, IMO maybe better than laughing at her, it would have been best to HELP her. She certainly could have achieved Rescue training without ever having done a Giant Stride off a boat. Looking down is not so much an issue, but rather holding onto the mask. I'd likely loose mine every time if I did not hold on to it.
At least she was not hitting the boat with her tanks, jumping onto other divers, or knocking herself out.
More than likely she was an OW diver with little experience, and offered up her OW cert as proof which was all that was needed to dive, and that would explain the reason the DM's allowed her to dive. With all the sue happy people in the world, you can bet they made sure she was certified even if she was not the diver she indicated she was.
AOW Checkout - 5
Nitrox - 2 (maybe done in any of the other classes)
Rescue - 5
Plus she would have to have 4 additional dives to complete Rescue.
The simple fact is that she could not have been rescue trained without more diving, at least under PADI. Actually under SSI or NAUI she could be rescue trained with as little as 9 dives I believe.
Verifiying certs are easy, at least a PADI cert. It can be done online, or with a quick phone call.
However if she was on a live aboard, IMO maybe better than laughing at her, it would have been best to HELP her. She certainly could have achieved Rescue training without ever having done a Giant Stride off a boat. Looking down is not so much an issue, but rather holding onto the mask. I'd likely loose mine every time if I did not hold on to it.
At least she was not hitting the boat with her tanks, jumping onto other divers, or knocking herself out.
More than likely she was an OW diver with little experience, and offered up her OW cert as proof which was all that was needed to dive, and that would explain the reason the DM's allowed her to dive. With all the sue happy people in the world, you can bet they made sure she was certified even if she was not the diver she indicated she was.
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