Hovering

[dherbman]

The only reason I can think of for the indian position hover is that it looks cool.

It's a great way to quiet the hands and feet of a student and force them to contriol their buoyancy.

 

[scubatexastony]

Why do you need to be in a lotus position to learn about the efefcts of buoyancy and breathing? Why not assume a useful position, like horizontal?

Sure, students that are more comfortable can start horizontal, but in introducing the effects of breathing, sitting makes for easier eye contact. Vertical, inverted, or whatever posistion is needed to acheive a goal should be no problem for a seasoned diver testing for Dive Master. If you can make due with staying horizontal your entire dive life, great! Being a photographer, I have to use a bunch of contortions to not harm the reef while getting a good angle to the subject.

We're getting sidetracked on the all- mighty "you must be horizontal all the time" mentality, the OP asks why would he be required to do hovering in a lotus posistion. Well, maybe he just needs to do a bit of practice to be comfortable hovering, after all, it's just breath control.

 

[Bigcape]

No More ScubaSteve?

 

[divingjd]

Sure, students that are more comfortable can start horizontal, but in introducing the effects of breathing, sitting makes for easier eye contact. Vertical, inverted, or whatever posistion is needed to acheive a goal should be no problem for a seasoned diver testing for Dive Master. If you can make due with staying horizontal your entire dive life, great! Being a photographer, I have to use a bunch of contortions to not harm the reef while getting a good angle to the subject.

We're getting sidetracked on the all- mighty "you must be horizontal all the time" mentality, the OP asks why would he be required to do hovering in a lotus posistion. Well, maybe he just needs to do a bit of practice to be comfortable hovering, after all, it's just breath control.

I think scubatexastony is right - people are getting obsessive about this horizontal position stuff. Is horizontal the right position the vast majority of the time? Absolutely. Is it the right position 100% of the time? Absolutely not. Many people do not equalize well on descent when horizontal. It is much easier and safer for them to be vertical. Vertical orientation is also appropriate on ascent, at least in open water (nobody but the DIR crowd is talking about caves here, so if you want to talk about cave technique, there's a forum for that).

But the particular point here is whether it is appropriate to hover vertically. Personally, I think the vertical sitting hover is a good exercise. As I said in an earlier post, as dherbman said a few posts up, and several other people have said (and the horizontal nazis have ignored), the lotus/buddha/indian/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-
sitting-vertically-while-holding-your-fin-tips-position forces the student to control position SOLELY by breathing control. It takes the hands, legs, feet, fins, and anything else out of the equation. If you can't get your legs into that position, there's probably some other equivalent. But the point is that you really have to do it all with breathing and if you can do that, it is really easy to transfer what you have learned to horizontal hovering.

Let's change the scenario a little bit and see what people think. Do you think it is useful, justifiable, and practical to be able to hover oriented vertically, head down? Or is this just a different heresy in the DIR religion? And, if a head-down vertical hover is OK, then why is a head-up hover sacriligeous?

Personally, I find uses for a vertical head down hover all the time. It is often the only way to get into position to observe or photograph reef creatures. (Besides, it really impresses the students. )

 

[Soggy]

Vertical orientation is also appropriate on ascent, at least in open water (nobody but the DIR crowd is talking about caves here, so if you want to talk about cave technique, there's a forum for that).

Where do you see discussion of caves?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sure, students that are more comfortable can start horizontal, but in introducing the effects of breathing, sitting makes for easier eye contact. Vertical, inverted, or whatever posistion is needed to acheive a goal should be no problem for a seasoned diver testing for Dive Master. If you can make due with staying horizontal your entire dive life, great! Being a photographer, I have to use a bunch of contortions to not harm the reef while getting a good angle to the subject.

I started out teaching sitting and kneeling divers and changed to keeping htme as close as possible to horizontal from the beginning and NEVER overweighteds.

Skipping the sitting and kneeling definately and consistantly contributed to ending up more comfortable and able divers in less time.

Try it and see what you think.

We're getting sidetracked on the all- mighty "you must be horizontal all the time" mentality, the OP asks why would he be required to do hovering in a lotus posistion. Well, maybe he just needs to do a bit of practice to be comfortable hovering, after all, it's just breath control.

Some of us do sound obsessed with it but that because we see divers have so much trouble because they never learn to dive horizontal. They learn all about sitting but for the most part sitting is something we do on land and has little to do with diving.

Controling buoyancy may be mostly about breathing. That's true if position doesn't matter. However, position control while diving is about breathing, static trim (balance) and dynamic trim which includes body position. Those are the things that allow divers to move through the water nearly effortlessly having total control over their position. Unfortunately this isn't being taught to most divers even at the instructor level. It's a shame to because it's so easy to learn and makes diving so much easier.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think scubatexastony is right - people are getting obsessive about this horizontal position stuff. Is horizontal the right position the vast majority of the time? Absolutely. Is it the right position 100% of the time? Absolutely not. Many people do not equalize well on descent when horizontal. It is much easier and safer for them to be vertical.

I have to disagree here. Since I switched to teaching horizontal descents I found students having far less equalization problems. The reason is simple. They had far more control over the speed at which they descended. Not only that but they were then far better able to stay next to their buddy as they descended. It also completely iliminated the infamouse butt first plumit that we so often see OW students doing in OW.

Safer? I'd like to see some evidence to that. Being horizontal and neutral leaves up in the best position to initiate movement in any directrion. I already mentioned that being horizontal make it easier to stay with your buddy on descent (something OW divers are almost never taught tot do) but being horizontal and facing your buddy on descent allows you to get right up to him with a singke swipe of your fins if you need to. Descents and ascents are prime time for problems to occure and it's also when divers are least prepared to handle them...while it's when they should be the most prepared.

Vertical orientation is also appropriate on ascent, at least in open water (nobody but the DIR crowd is talking about caves here, so if you want to talk about cave technique, there's a forum for that).

Having nothing to do with caves, horizontal makes for the most control during ascents just as it does on descent and for all the same reasons. If you feel the need to go more vertical near the surface to check for boats or whatever then do it but there is no advantage to being vertical through the entire ascent.

But the particular point here is whether it is appropriate to hover vertically. Personally, I think the vertical sitting hover is a good exercise. As I said in an earlier post, as dherbman said a few posts up, and several other people have said (and the horizontal nazis have ignored), the lotus/buddha/indian/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-
sitting-vertically-while-holding-your-fin-tips-position forces the student to control position SOLELY by breathing control. It takes the hands, legs, feet, fins, and anything else out of the equation. If you can't get your legs into that position, there's probably some other equivalent. But the point is that you really have to do it all with breathing and if you can do that, it is really easy to transfer what you have learned to horizontal hovering.

As I already pointed out. A diver who has just learned breath control so they can hover absolutely does not necessarily know what they need to know to tranfer anything to horizontal. It is true the other way around though. A students who has gotten his static and dynamic trim under control can move from being horizontal to any position he chooses.

Let's change the scenario a little bit and see what people think. Do you think it is useful, justifiable, and practical to be able to hover oriented vertically, head down? Or is this just a different heresy in the DIR religion? And, if a head-down vertical hover is OK, then why is a head-up hover sacriligeous?

Personally, I find uses for a vertical head down hover all the time. It is often the only way to get into position to observe or photograph reef creatures. (Besides, it really impresses the students. )

Once you understand the mechanics and techniques that give you control I'd say use whatever position that you need for the activity you're engaged or even just to have fun. What concerns me far more is all the divers I see silting and strugling along because they haven't been taught the very most basic mechanics and techniques of diving.

 

[jbd]

As I already pointed out. A diver who has just learned breath control so they can hover absolutely does not necessarily know what they need to know to tranfer anything to horizontal. It is true the other way around though. A students who has gotten his static and dynamic trim under control can move from being horizontal to any position he chooses.

Once you understand the mechanics and techniques that give you control I'd say use whatever position that you need for the activity you're engaged or even just to have fun. What concerns me far more is all the divers I see silting and strugling along because they haven't been taught the very most basic mechanics and techniques of diving.

I agree with Mike's two posts above but these two paragraphs just really stand out as examples of what we should be getting across to new divers or those that are having problems related to bouyancy.

 

[RiverRat]

What concerns me far more is all the divers I see silting and strugling along because they haven't been taught the very most basic mechanics and techniques of diving.

Mike, I think you nailed it right there. Right after I got out of the OW to AOW track I jumped on Scubaboard to seek answers to questions I had on these very basic mechanics and techniques. I did a Discover Scuba 4 years ago and it was the most awesome experience. We ended up doing a nice, controlled 30 minute dive in a 30fsw lagoon in St. Maarten. I still don't know how this guy (1 DM to 4 students) got us weighted right and was able to lead us on such a dive without us crashing into the bottom or flying to the surface, but he did it. I think alot had to do with the fact that we were the leftover "cattle" and got a nice small "class". In addition, they had a training "barge" (square platform in the middle of a large square boat) that you just swam out of onto the down lines. A nice transition into a 30 ft. dive so you never got the feeling of jumping into deep water. Then I took OW and it was quite a different experience. Yes it was up here in a cold, dark quarry. But it was much more rushed. I was now in new gear, 7mm, hood, gloves, you name it. So much more lead, all of it around my hips. No more horizontal diving like in St. Maarten. I was now the Concorde on takeoff. In any event, I got that sorted out after AOW on my own. I think there is much that can be done during OW, and certainly during AOW, to have divers coming out with a better sence of neutral buoyancy, trim, breathing control etc. I think fin pivots can teach breath control concepts in the beginning. But hovering like a balloon with instructors pulling you back down to the platform by your SPG doesn't do much for me. And poor fitting rental gear does not help either. I think if courses were structured a little better (even if that means charging more) then we'd churn out some better divers.

 

[jbichsel]

MikeFerrara,
It's good to see you're back. I know we've had many good discusions in the past and I enjoy reading your posts and learning from your experience.

I am in total agreement with you. Horizontal is definately the preferred and in my estimation safer way to ascend and descend. I also believe that it is the preferred way to teach/learn skills. It takes some getting used to after being indoctrinated to perform all skills kneeling on the bottom, but I have yet to come across a diver that stops his dive, kneels on the bottom to clear his mask. But they are probably out there.

Perfoming skills while in a "real world scenario" seems to make the most sense. Teach in an attitude that you will most likely be in while diving.

Sure, maybe present the skills in shallow water kneeling for the first time, but once in the deeper water, horizontally hovering seems more productive and real.

The added surface area created by being horizontal would seem to cause a slowere ascent/descent rate which aids in equalization issues and helps reduce the "ICBM" effect that can come with inexperience or panic ascent situations.

I wish we could get the training agencies to see the validity of this and implement this as SOP.