Holding a panicked diver down

[dumpsterDiver]

I was training my youngest son to scuba at about 6-7 years old in the pool in the deep end. He got water up his nose (or something) and spit the reg and started to bolt. Thank god I caught him immediately and held him down. I knew there was no way he would put a reg back in his mouth and he was not exhaling. I just held him down and he struggled more and more, kicking and pulling with his arms as hard as possible. I felt absolutely terrible, but there is no way he was being released until I saw bubbles.. FINALLY he screamed (and cried) and I had him on the surface in an instant. We were both very upset. His scuba lessons were discontinued for a whole year after that incident.

 

[DevonDiver]

How does that differ from an assault?

No different to any technique or physical contact attempted to restrain a panicking diver from a rapid breath-holding ascent.

What were you thinking...tap them on the shoulder and ask for a quiet word about their dive practices?

The key issue with intervening physically to arrest a panicked ascent is whether you ascertain a risk of lung over-expansion injury. No bubbles or discarded regulator is indicative of that. Here's what PADI say on the matter:

Active panic – A diver with active panic underwater will likely bolt for the surface.

• You want to prevent a rapid, breath-hold ascent.
• For a breathing diver (regulator in place) simply hanging on and flaring out will usually suffice to control the ascent rate.
• If the diver is breath-holding, a delay is your best bet at getting him to resume breathing before ascending too far.
• If the victim is out of air, delaying the ascent may get the diver to signal you for an alternate regulator, or the diver may simply go for the one in your mouth.
• A panicked diver who has dropped the regulator is probably breath-holding. Slow the ascent as much as possible while giving your alternate air source.
A panicked diver doesn’t usually respond rationally, so you may have to push the mouthpiece into the victim’s mouth while lightly depressing the purge button so the second stage remains clear.
• Once you reach the surface with a panicked diver, establish positive buoyancy for the diver. Monitor the diver because lung overexpansion injuries are possible and may require further rescue and care. If the diver doesn’t calm down, use the procedures you’ve learned for rescuing a panicked diver at the surface.

how do you keep them from punching you in the face or yanking you regulator out or knocking your mask off?

i ask because that is what I would do if you held me down

I doubt sincerely you know what you'd do - unless you've already been in a panicked state underwater.... and if that were true, you'd probably have a clearer idea about your capabilities, mindset and thought-processes under such circumstances.

PADI Rescue Course, Exercise 4: "Correctly identify and respond to a panicked diver making an uncontrolled ascent." - I've taught that a quite a few times, and dealt with panicked divers for real, more times than that. In doing so, I draw upon 20+ years of Jiu-Jitsu and grappling training - so, again, no hypotheticals...workable techniques.

How it works - your thighs are wrapped around their lower legs, holding them static/together. Your head is somewhere around waist level - tucked in and relatively protected. You 'climb' your hands up their BCD and locate the LPI. Once found, you dump the LPI if necessary. However, most truly panicked divers don't think to inflate the LPI - they just kick like mad for the surface. The legs are the key priority to immobilize, if seeking to slow/arrest the ascent.

If the diver were somehow coherent enough to problem-solve and seek to remove my influence, then the reaction is simple. Slide down their body (having dumped the LPI) and grip their lower legs around with your arms. They now cannot reach your face/mask/regulator. You can let go whenever you feel you need to.

Once ascent is arrested - and risk of immediate lung over-expansion injury is removed (a couple of seconds), offer your regulator and/or take steps to psychologically calm the victim.

 

[Kitty_Kat]

Most of my experiences with panicking/panicked divers have involved students and my response usually falls into one of two categories depending on which stage of panic they are in.

If you catch the diver right as their eyes go all wide and they start to tense up, a good reassuring grasp on their arms usually prevents them from taking off and you can then calm them down underwater by reminding them to breath and think about what's happening.

We have lots of sea lions in my area that like to come play with divers and I was leading a student on a private dive the other day when one came flying out of nowhere and came right up in front of us. Immediately my student's eyes got all big and you could tell that she was about to take off, but grabbing her arm and making her look at me got her to stop. She was then completely fine as the sea lion came up and touched its nose to my mask, blew a bubble in her face and swam off. Just the little bit of physical reassurance of having a hand on her arm was all it took. She brought it up afterward and said that she had no idea why her first instinct was to bolt up, but all it took was that second of remembering that someone else was there with her to realize that swimming up was completely unnecessary.

In my opinion, if you can get ahold of someone while they are still capable of thinking, then by all means try since it will probably be effective and get their attention.

When a diver has moved on to complete panic, the short answer is that I will do whatever I can to slow them down (not hold them down) without putting myself in a situation where I am risking a dangerous ascent.

Grabbing around the knees so they can't kick (if you are below them) is usually very effective since I really don't see many panicked divers remember that they have a inflator button. If you make yourself as negative as possible and flare out your legs you can create quite a bit of drag very quickly. I have never really had a student try to punch/kick me off of them as you might think either. They are generally so singlemindedly thinking about the surface at that point that you probably won't even register. If you are above them, try to dump their BCD faster than they can rise using a quick dump or their LPI. This isn't as effective unless they are overweighted, and puts you in more danger of a quick ascent though.

 

[redacted]

I see way too much emphasis on holding a diver down and way to little on assisting the diver safely to the surface.

Anybody who holds me down when I want to surface is risking my life and theirs.

 

[Tigerman]

so what youre saying awap is that if youre about to ascend into the propeller of a boat, Im to leave you alone? I think thats far more a risk to your life than keeping you under even in panic...

 

[t4e]

I doubt sincerely you know what you'd do - unless you've already been in a panicked state underwater.... and if that were true, you'd probably have a clearer idea about your capabilities, mindset and thought-processes under such circumstances.

thankfully i never did, and hopefully never will...the response is just how i imagine i would react at the thought of being out of air and someone holding me down drowning me


i like Kitty_Kat's opinion and i also agree with awap, holding me down endangers my life and that of who tries to do it

so what youre saying awap is that if youre about to ascend into the propeller of a boat, Im to leave you alone? I think thats far more a risk to your life than keeping you under even in panic...

what if that diver drowns?...would you have second thoughts about your decision?

 

[DevonDiver]

I see way too much emphasis on holding a diver down and way to little on assisting the diver safely to the surface.

Isn't that focus to be expected in a thread entitled "Holding a panicked diver down"?

We could debate on the wider issue of 'dealing with stressed or panicked divers', but this thread deals with specific issues concerning arresting a panicked diver from a dangerous ascent.

Anybody who holds me down when I want to surface is risking my life and theirs.

At no point is anyone suggesting that you should prevent a diver from surfacing. Merely, intervening and correcting to ensure they ascend and surface in a safe manner.

If I see someone spit their regulator and bolt to the surface without exhaling, I'm going to assume that they haven't made a conscious, logical choice to do so. That they are, by default, acting in a manner that immediately threatens their own life due to blind panic. When working in a supervisory capacity, I feel obligated to protect those under my supervision from such circumstances. If not actively supervising, with the acceptance of liability that entails, then I'd still feel a moral obligation to intervene to protect that person's life.

If someone wanted to subsequently sue me for that intervention, then so be it. I'd rather deal with that issue than live with the guilt of having taken no action, when I could have otherwise made a difference. As for being punched in the face - for me, like water of a duck's back... and a sacrifice I'd make if it saved a life.

---------- Post added March 24th, 2013 at 09:47 AM ----------

holding me down endangers my life...

What you're missing is the context of "... is probably breath-holding".

If a diver is making a fast, but otherwise safe, ascent - then you should slow them (not stop them).

If a diver is making a breath-holding ascent, you need to stop them (and get them breathing, before continuing the ascent).

In the context of a breath-holding panicked ascent, holding you down is considerably safer than allowing you to proceed.

....and that of who tries to do it

Dealing with any panicking diver involves a level of increased risk to the rescuer. It is the individual's choice what level of risk they are willing to expose themselves too. Proper technique, however, can help minimize that risk. The principles of rescuer risk and proper technique are dealt with on the Rescue Diver course...

 

[brnt999]

"Dealing with any panicking diver involves a level of increased risk to the rescuer. It is the individual's choice what level of risk they are willing to expose themselves too. Proper technique, however, can help minimize that risk. The principles of rescuer risk and proper technique are dealt with on the Rescue Diver course..."

There could be increased risk to the panicked diver by the actions of the rescuer. Just because someone is a "rescuer" doesn't mean they are competant, or skilled, or use sound judgement. So in a hypothetical case where an instructor used unsound judgement in assisting a panicked student and caused them harm, I guess the instructor would be morally,legally,civily in the wrong?

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2013 at 11:00 PM ----------

I was training my youngest son to scuba at about 6-7 years old in the pool in the deep end. He got water up his nose (or something) and spit the reg and started to bolt. Thank god I caught him immediately and held him down. I knew there was no way he would put a reg back in his mouth and he was not exhaling. I just held him down and he struggled more and more, kicking and pulling with his arms as hard as possible. I felt absolutely terrible, but there is no way he was being released until I saw bubbles.. FINALLY he screamed (and cried) and I had him on the surface in an instant. We were both very upset. His scuba lessons were discontinued for a whole year after that incident.

Nothing personal, but if I were your son I would be looking for a new father.

 

[redacted]

.... assisting the diver safely to the surface.

Anybody who holds me down when I want to surface is risking my life and theirs.

so what youre saying awap is that if youre about to ascend into the propeller of a boat, Im to leave you alone? I think thats far more a risk to your life than keeping you under even in panic...

Leaving the diver alone is your choice of word. I spoke of holding the diver down vs assisting them safely to the surface.

 

[Primalchrome]

2) Wrap legs around their lower legs (below knee) with a figure-4 lock to immobilize them. (Google this - it's a wrestling/jiu-jitsu principle).

No offense Devon, but I think this is a very dangerous recommendation. Grapevine on the legs or just using your thighs/knees to pinch their calfs....maybe. Figure 4? Bad idea. A figure 4 is a SOLID lock of the ankle under the back of the knee. It's very easy to release in no-gi Jiu-Jitsu and fairly easy to release in gi Jiu-Jitsu (assuming the person doesn't roll themselves toward the lock and set the foot against the mat). In a thick wetsuit or drysuit with fins on your feet, you run a real risk of not being able to release quickly or being draggged upward with the victim.

<edit>Just saw that you've been taking BJJ for quite some time. Obviously you're going to have the flexibility and technique to easily slip a figure four or exert control over someone under water. That being said, I think for someone that doesn't roll....using a figure 4 would be a bad idea.</edit>