help with tank selection for Intro to cave???

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Jbell8289

Contributor
Messages
123
Reaction score
1
Location
Macon, Georgia
# of dives
25 - 49
Im planning on taking a cavern and Intro to cave (assuming the cavern portion goes well) in a few months and im trying to decide what to do about tanks selection. I would really like to go ahead and get a doubles set up because i feel that in the long run that is what i will be diving... but, at the same time money is tight so what should i do? Currently i own a single worthington X8-119 eventually i would like another to double them up but that would also require purchasing a drysuit for redundant lift not to mention manifold and bands. on the other hand i am aware that the intro course can be taken in a single tank with an H-valve. I also work at a dive shop so i can get a set of double al 80's for about the same price as another 119and could of course forgo the dry suit.

so for all you veterans out there what do you suggest ?
1.) do the course in my single 119 with a H-valve and put money towards double steel?
2.) go for the double al 80's ?
3.) wait until i have everything i need for double 119's then take the course?
4.) none of the above (insert better answer :) )?
 
Why not talk to your instructor & see what he/ she recommends appropriate for the courses. Some courses allow for the use of double cylinders (with restrictions), some do not allow them.

By the way, you can have redundant lift without a drysuit by using a double bladder wing.
 
Assuming you are doing the course in Florida I would NOT suggest using double 80's. At intro you are limited to 1/6 doubles or 1/3 single tank. That gives you around 26 cu ft max for penetration. Given that many popular caves in Florida are ~100 deep and have some flow your dives are not going to be very long. Figure around 10 minutes going in, distance maybe 500 ft max.

Doing intro with the tank you have might be the best solution (although I am not a fan of single tanks in overheads no matter what valve they may have on them)

if you go beyond intro you will almost certainly end up with a drysuit and 2 large steel tanks.

You might want to at least think about sidemount.Not much point setting up for doubles if sidemount could be in the future.

Do you have a can light?

Money being tight and wanting to dive caves is a tough combination!
 
Assuming you are doing the course in Florida I would NOT suggest using double 80's. At intro you are limited to 1/6 doubles or 1/3 single tank. That gives you around 26 cu ft max for penetration. Given that many popular caves in Florida are ~100 deep and have some flow your dives are not going to be very long. Figure around 10 minutes going in, distance maybe 500 ft max.

Doing intro with the tank you have might be the best solution (although I am not a fan of single tanks in overheads no matter what valve they may have on them)

if you go beyond intro you will almost certainly end up with a drysuit and 2 large steel tanks.

You might want to at least think about sidemount.Not much point setting up for doubles if sidemount could be in the future.

Do you have a can light?

Money being tight and wanting to dive caves is a tough combination!

haha yes it is but its worth it i think. im not in a big hurry or anything so i dont mind waiting until i have everything i need. after all i am a fairly new diver. i was originally planning on doing just the cavern course but after many trips to the Fl springs i know i will want to go farther so i might as well be prepared. and no i do not have a can light yet either but thanks to the shop i work at that can be had for a pretty good bargin.
 
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if your dive number is correct, i'd stick with your single. you're used to it, and anything new will be a *huge* burden in class. if you don't have time to do 20 or so dives with doubles, just don't go there yet. yes, you'll likely go to doubles eventually, but a single & h will get you through intro & give you time to sort things out then. *no new gear right before class!*
 
I'm sure your employer loves you posting his cost on equipment :)

If you are happy shelling out $400 for a 21 watt HID, consider purchasing a 10 watt and putting the extra money towards other gear, or higher quality instruction. You do get what you pay for in cave instruction.

I know I was freezing in a wetsuit at the Intro level, and moving into a drysuit was the best thing I ever did for my diving. They can be had cheap on the used market sometimes, but as with all used gear, be prepared to wait for a great deal.

I began Intro with doubled al100's, and they worked well for me. But, 95's were a great leap forwards. With practice, you can see a lot of stuff on 6ths of 95's, at one point I was managing 1500 foot swims in Ginnie on 6ths of 95's. Moving up to lp120's gave me egads of gas.

When I moved into sidemount, I used the lp120's for a bit, but they are awful heavy no matter what, so when a buddy offered to let me use his hp120's in exchange for me letting him use the lp120s, for trimix dives, I jumped on the offer. The hp120's are great for me in sm. I've also used 85's for some sidemount stuff where I didn't need all the gas, and didn't want to carry even the hp120's (in Florida summers, hiking gear through the woods, and in some cases using ropes to get gear into a sinkhole, I welcomed the smaller tanks with open arms) I recently picked up some 95's for backmount diving and still love them.

In short, I feel there is no perfect tank, and I can be happy diving nearly any cylinder. 95's are common and you can find good deals on them used. I would not take intro in a single cylinder, as I do not feel that single cylinders are ideal for cave diving. But, if you aren't man enough (or woman enough) to stick to your limit of 6ths in doubles, (honestly, the instructors that are worth their fee would probably be able to assess that you are not prepared mentally and would not pass you, but plenty of people do get passed without the maturity for this sport) then don't go with doubles.


Lots of people jumping on the sidemount craze. It's super popular nowadays. Lots of people with lots of arguments for or against. Some even argue that no one should dive backmount and everyone should start in sidemount. Obviously, I dive sidemount. However, I also dive backmount. Each has their purpose. Don't go sidemount because it's cool and trendy.

How new are you to diving? Not that I really care, it's more of a rhetorical question, but I would really, really, really urge you to find a good instructor, someone who you know will flunk you if you aren't safe. I've seen lots of new divers who aren't ready for overhead get passed by an instructor. If you get passed and didn't deserve to, you'll get a reputation pretty quick, it just takes a few people to see you in the water for word to get around that you aren't a good dive buddy. Much harder to fix that reputation than it is to simply accept that you aren't ready, and practice, go back and finish the class and pass. Much more important to pick a good instructor than to worry too much about what's the best tank for intro :) Tanks are easier to replace than bad instruction.


[edit] Babyduck made a point I forgot to address, adding new gear before a class. Some are vehemently against it. I think it depends on the diver. If you have a good instructor, they'll help you assess if you are good enough. Ask if you can do a "get to know me" dive with them in open water, for them to see your skills, and for you to see their style of teaching and get feedback on things you might want to work on before the class. I know some teachers who require that sort of dive before they will do a class with you, and those that won't would probably be more than willing.
 
One thing that wasn't brought up so far was that the best doubles tank size can also be related to your overall size/weight/build. In general, taller
people seem to trim out better with longer tanks, shorter people tend to go with smaller/shorter tanks. I'm sure someone will post up about being 6'5" and trimming out perfectly with LP 85's, but the physical dimensions of the tanks should be a consideration in your choice.

As others have said, talk to your instructor. When I bought my first doubles, I asked my cave instructor what he would recommend, given my
size/weight. I'm fairly short waisted, but athletically built and he recommended LP95's which have worked very well for me.

John
 
I'm sure your employer loves you posting his cost on equipment :)

If you are happy shelling out $400 for a 21 watt HID, consider purchasing a 10 watt and putting the extra money towards other gear, or higher quality instruction. You do get what you pay for in cave instruction.

I know I was freezing in a wetsuit at the Intro level, and moving into a drysuit was the best thing I ever did for my diving. They can be had cheap on the used market sometimes, but as with all used gear, be prepared to wait for a great deal.

I began Intro with doubled al100's, and they worked well for me. But, 95's were a great leap forwards. With practice, you can see a lot of stuff on 6ths of 95's, at one point I was managing 1500 foot swims in Ginnie on 6ths of 95's. Moving up to lp120's gave me egads of gas.

When I moved into sidemount, I used the lp120's for a bit, but they are awful heavy no matter what, so when a buddy offered to let me use his hp120's in exchange for me letting him use the lp120s, for trimix dives, I jumped on the offer. The hp120's are great for me in sm. I've also used 85's for some sidemount stuff where I didn't need all the gas, and didn't want to carry even the hp120's (in Florida summers, hiking gear through the woods, and in some cases using ropes to get gear into a sinkhole, I welcomed the smaller tanks with open arms) I recently picked up some 95's for backmount diving and still love them.

In short, I feel there is no perfect tank, and I can be happy diving nearly any cylinder. 95's are common and you can find good deals on them used. I would not take intro in a single cylinder, as I do not feel that single cylinders are ideal for cave diving. But, if you aren't man enough (or woman enough) to stick to your limit of 6ths in doubles, (honestly, the instructors that are worth their fee would probably be able to assess that you are not prepared mentally and would not pass you, but plenty of people do get passed without the maturity for this sport) then don't go with doubles.


Lots of people jumping on the sidemount craze. It's super popular nowadays. Lots of people with lots of arguments for or against. Some even argue that no one should dive backmount and everyone should start in sidemount. Obviously, I dive sidemount. However, I also dive backmount. Each has their purpose. Don't go sidemount because it's cool and trendy.

How new are you to diving? Not that I really care, it's more of a rhetorical question, but I would really, really, really urge you to find a good instructor, someone who you know will flunk you if you aren't safe. I've seen lots of new divers who aren't ready for overhead get passed by an instructor. If you get passed and didn't deserve to, you'll get a reputation pretty quick, it just takes a few people to see you in the water for word to get around that you aren't a good dive buddy. Much harder to fix that reputation than it is to simply accept that you aren't ready, and practice, go back and finish the class and pass. Much more important to pick a good instructor than to worry too much about what's the best tank for intro :) Tanks are easier to replace than bad instruction.


[edit] Babyduck made a point I forgot to address, adding new gear before a class. Some are vehemently against it. I think it depends on the diver. If you have a good instructor, they'll help you assess if you are good enough. Ask if you can do a "get to know me" dive with them in open water, for them to see your skills, and for you to see their style of teaching and get feedback on things you might want to work on before the class. I know some teachers who require that sort of dive before they will do a class with you, and those that won't would probably be more than willing.

your probably right...edit.

as for the rest i have not yet settled on an instructor yet ive heard good things about several. jim wyatt, johnny richards, dan patterson to name a few who i have considered i feel as if i will get a good course through either, any opinions?

i have only been diving for a couple of years and am still learning but i do feel like i am up for the challenge of the cave environment and am well aware of the risk and dangers of not respecting it. and as i said before the intro course will only be pursued if the cavern course goes very well.

Why is it not a good idea to do intro in a single tank w/ H-valve..?.is it due to the gas limits or is it the H-valve not being a true redundant air supply? this was the reason i wanted to go for doubles ive heard several people mention this but have never heard why.. and i also agree that new equipment before class is a bad idea i would def have to do some practice dives first

as for tank size i love my 119 it fits like a glove...another reason i really want two lol

I had forgotten about it only being 1/6th doubles and 1/3 singles so in reality i would have more gas in my current singles set up for penetration...correct?
 
Those are all very good instructors. I've got the most experience with Rich Courtney and Lesley Jacques in the water, but I know all three of the guys you mentioned. They each have a pretty different way of teaching, so it might be best to meet them or atleast talk to them, to see who you feel you would learn the best from. Rich and Lesley both are very demanding, but both make learning a lot of fun, and never raise their voice or anything, but won't hesitate to flunk you if you aren't good. And, there are lots of other great instructors. I just urge caution because I know there are lots of so so instructors :)

Well, if you get doubled 119's, then compared to your single 119, you have the same usable gas: 1/3 of 119 or 1/6 of 2*119, same gas. However, when you are at max penetration and something very bad happens, then in your single 119 you have 2/3 of 119 cubic feet. In doubled 119's, you have 5/6 of 2*119, a lot of extra gas.

Doubles are also more redundant than an H valve, and I like the way they feel on my back compared to a single tank. When you can find doubles in hydro and vis for less than $550 used (sometimes lower than $450 used) it's not that great of an expense, and worth it in my opinion. Especially as you will need it for anything above intro.
 
I had forgotten about it only being 1/6th doubles and 1/3 singles so in reality i would have more gas in my current singles set up for penetration...correct?

Yes, you would have more gas allowed for penetration in a single 119 than in double 80's.
Something that has never made any sense to me!

As regards the H valve they are not truly redundant. A leaking tank O ring or (more likely) a blown burst disc can lose all of your gas. Not common problems but possible.
Have never used an H valve personally but it looks harder to reach the valves than in doubles.
 
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