Help with guide numbers

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Lee:

I was at Marty's seminar. The GN question I forgot to ask him. It seems to me that the GN for an Underwater Strobe should be for use underwater (not in air). What good is a GN in air if you are using the thing underwater? And if it is a GN in air, how do your convert it to underwater? I hope the GN gurus will answer.

Best Always

---Bob
 
What good is a GN in air if you are using the thing underwater?

Guide number ratings are also used to compare power ratings from one strobe to another. Since less variables exist in air than water, most all strobe manufacturers list an air GN for each strobe produced. Some strobe manufacturers though believe watt seconds are a more reliable measure in determining strobe power.

And if it is a GN in air, how do your convert it to underwater?

Wish it were that easy, Bob. But since testing procedures and lens designs vary by manufacturer, there is no one easy formula that exists to punch the numbers into.

That said,

If any of you would like to see a chart of guide number ratings (tested by the manufacturer) for most every underwater strobe available to the diving community, visit digitaldiver.net's Strobe Finder at:

http://www.digitaldiver.net/strobes.php

Once there, click on one of the quick query buttons, such as optically triggered. Next you may also wish to read short explanations (click on the links!)I wrote along with Richard Perry and Ryan Canon on guide numbers and other strobe features such as energy ratings, color temps, beam angle coverage, preflash compatibility, etc. along with their relevance.

Meanwhile, it is not too difficult to determine an underwater guide number on your own for an underwater strobe. Simply place an object underwater 3 feet from the strobe head. Set strobe for full dump and fire away using various apertures. The aperture that yields the best exposure (not overexposed, not underexposed) is then multiplied by 3 (in this case, 3 was the Distance from strobe to subject).

Let's assume that an Aperture of f/8 produced the best quality exposure. Multiply three times eight and the resulting number could be therefore considered the underwater guide number.

Example:

GN=A*D

GN = f/8*3 = an underwater guide number of 24.

Of course the clarity of the water would play an important role in the equation. But we can assume that if a strobe manufacturer supplied an underwater guide number, the test was conducted in a filtered swimming pool or crystal clear Caribbean water.

In this age of digital cameras, histograms, and instant feedback, understanding the guide number formula may not be as relevant as it once was. We find ourselves today in an era when Jim Watt's mantra of Shoot, Review, Adjust, Shoot Again is the preferred method among many point and shoot enthusiasts. otoh, when things begin to go awry, or if you wish to maximize depth of field, or even manual controllers, a small amount of background knowledge of the guide number formula may be worth it's weight in pixels.

At least it was for Ansel Adams and crew as gert7to3 pointed out.......

hth,
b
 
bobf:
In this age of digital cameras, histograms, and instant feedback, understanding the guide number formula may not be as relevant as it once was. b

This is the best point I have seen so far. But if you really must know this may help:

http://www.shortcourses.com/how/guidenumbers/guidenumbers.htm

http://www.vividlight.com/articles/1214.htm

But then how often does one shoot from a strobe to subject distance of 72 FT... UW??! Keep in mind that UW strobe shooting distances, average less than 3 FT.

More important than GN in close up wideangle shots UW, is the strobe light coverage or lack of coverage. Multi strobes (4) lightweight with low GN and cheap are my choices.
 
Hi Bob! Thanks for the help!

I found this comparison chart on Ike's website. It shows UW guide numbers for various strobes using Ikelites testing protocols.

You are right about water conditions. I dive SE Florida and learned years ago that the large amount of particulate matter we have in the water down here affects the stobe. The on strobe charts are good approximations, but need fine tuning for your strobe and the other factors (camera lens etc) mentioned in this thead.

Years ago I was staying at the Susnset house in Grand Cayman and took a lesson from one of Cathy Chuch's fair haired boys. They were big on strobe calibration figuring the manufacturer's numbers were approximate and the individual strobe needed to be calibrated. I have long since forgotten the formula but I seem to remember taking an incident light reading in air at 24", using this as 18" (1.5') because of the fact that you are "fooled" as to distance because of the apparent magnification in water, and then subtract two stops to account for the water. Please do not quote me on this formula as it is from memory and a number of years have passed. The guide chart we made for the strobe (Ikelite 225) has worked great as a starting point over the years. If I need to bracket, the strobe power switch usually gets me an image that works.

I jumped on this thread because I am in the process of buying a digital UW rig with new strobes. When I asked Marty the calibration question at Oceanfest, he suggested a lot of in water testing. I will do so. Thanks for the idea of using in water tests to back into the guide number. Now, if I can only find a foolproof way to measure distance....

---Bob
 
WOW,

I can't begin to thank everyone for all of their help and the links provided. By way of background. Motor Marine II, as stated is a film camera (okay, I admit it, I'm old). I don't have any plans to buy a digital camera any time soon. I like film.

The seminar that Bob (ScubaBOBuba) and I attended opened my eyes to a number of things that were really frustrating me. On one hand, I was getting adiquate exposures, but noticable hot spot from the flash right in the center of the fish causing a loss of color - bad.

The other issue was that I was getting false colors (nice green morays were a very sickly yellow) which I also attributed to the flash.

For the record, I was using ISO 400 at f22 with a speed of 1/60th, usually at 3ft or less. After a few bad rolls, I dropped back to 1/2 power on the strobe. It improved the picture quality, but not to the 'display' quality that I'm looking for.

I then attended the Seminar at OceanFest and realized that yes, Virginia, you do need a light meter. Okay. Problem one taken care of - I am now the proud owner of an Ikelite DM4200 digital u/w meter. This will help with long distance, 'blue water' shots (see Bob, I wasn't the one snoring in the back of the room!). But I'm still confronted with the flash problem. Hence the Guide Number issues.

The presenter really hammered that problem - and the math made sense (this, to a political science major - no small thing). But found I needed to have the GN for my flash. After intensive searching, I came up with the 72 GN (Air) for my strobe, which hatched a number of other questions. Being a firm believer in SCUBABOARD, I posted this thread.

Again, thank you all so very much - gert7to3 for initially explaining it - causing my hair to hurt), Alcina for jumping in and inviting bobf into the discussion and everyone else who offered their take on the topic. Thank you! I will be taking gert7to3's suggestion and buying the book 'The New Guide to Sea and Sea' from Amazon today. While I'm waiting for it to arrive, rest assured, I will be reading the links that you folks so thoughtfully provided.

Again, thanks whole bunches. If anyone dives South Florida, Look me up, I'm usually the guy fumbling with the yellow Sea and Sea Motor Marine II looking really confused and grumbling about a missed shot due to a bogus f-stop setting!

Lee

PS ScubaBOBula - to figure distance, I use my arm. It's about 2 feet long. If I think I could reach out and touch the target, I set the camera for that range and fire away! If it's about half the distance, finger tip to elbow, then figure for 1 foot. Rough but effective.
 
Hi Lee:

I am impressed. The 4200 looks like a great investment. I still use an ancient seconic analog ambinent light meter when I want to get a fix on the background. A few years ago I bot a digital light meter for surface use. I looked at the UW meter (which can be used for surface stuff) and got cheap and did not buy it. The neat thing is that you can use your light meter to capture incident (flash) readings underwater. This will make your strobe calibration a snap. So tell me, when and where are you diving S Florida again....?

Your UW measurement system sounds interesting and I think I will give it a go. What I am really looking for is an underwater laser ranging system. Anyone know where to find one?


---Bob
 
Bob,

I make one or two trips a month down to South Florida for diving. Check out the Florida Conch Divers on this board. I'm usually lurking around there.

My underwater measurment technique usually works - especially considering I'm hanging out in the f16-f22 range giving me tremendous depth of field. Don't know how accurate a laser rangefinder would be - lots of crud in the water that could cause reflections.

Again, thanks to you all for your help with this issue. I really do appreciate it.

Regards,

Lee
 

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