Help Get BC Myths Tested On MythBusters!

[elmer fudd]

elmer fudd, If we look at my exact wording both in this thread and in the Discovery forum thread, the question is which "well designed" BC is more streamlined; a well designed Vest, a well designed BI or a well designed BP/W?

The reason for wanting answers to this question is that in every Vest vs BP/W thread, some BP/W proponents claim BP/W's are more streamlined than Vest's, yet they can not prove it so then when asked for proof they say "I don't need proof, I know what I feel."

That is a really weak argument and I would like to eliminate it all together, replacing it with fact.

Arguing about it here is not getting us anywhere, as usual. Not helping me get MythBusters to look at this subject means we will continue to argue to nowhere every time the subject comes up. I thought we could evolve, but I am probably wrong. :depressed:

This is way too much of an inside baseball issue for Mythbusters to take it up. Not that it couldn't be tested, it just wouldn't appeal to a broad enough audience for them to do it.

To get back to the streamlining question however, I doubt there is any inherent streamlining advantage to wing design over vest design whatsoever. I think the main issue is that wings were favored by die hard tech divers while vests were favored by vacation divers. The tech diver crowd was more knowledgeable and experienced and willing to spend money and their gear reflected that. Some of those old vest BC's were real monstrosities. I'm looking at an old Sherwood vest that I dug out of my pile of old gear and it's got more padding and bulk to it than some actual life vests. Compared to a backplate with a one piece harness it is indeed a very buoyant and unstreamlined POS.

An old Mae West in it's deflated state however is a front inflate that's about as streamlined as you can get.

About the only thing that I see that would make a back inflate wing more inherently hydrodynamic would be the fact that it partially fills the triangular gaps on the sides of the tank, but of course the buoyancy of air is going to make it migrate away from those spots anyway.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Perhaps, if we want this disussion to move in a constructive direction, we can focus on defining precisely which wing configuration, and which stab jacket setup, are considered the most streamlined in their class? Then we might be able to more objectively look at the issue.

Moving this thread in a constructive direction with regards to the "intent" of the OP would be to move the entire discussion to the Discovery forum to show MythBusters that there is an internet controversy on this subject.

Considering that the ex Borg Queen, now Borg Cupcake, and the recently anointed Borg Princess both are regular posters in nearly every BP/W thread, I thought we could flex the muscle of the SB "Collective" and see if SB can actually cause something to happen.

 

[elmer fudd]

Check out the Scubapro Classic Sport. It lies pretty darned close to completely flat against the body.

I took a look at it online. Next time I'm in a shop I'll check it out. No plans to buy at all though since I purchased a BPW not that long ago. I'm looking more in the direction of vintage style harnesses connected straight to the tank these days.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

This is way too much of an inside baseball issue for Mythbusters to take it up. Not that it couldn't be tested, it just wouldn't appeal to a broad enough audience for them to do it.

An old Mae West in it's deflated state however is a front inflate that's about as streamlined as you can get.

I have been thinking of ways to make this subject more entertaining for the non diving viewers and one possibility would be a "James Bond" theme show where we do a modern version of the Thunderball underwater fight scenes. Which modern BC style would result in the fastest DPV divers?

There could be multiple models of scooters (Apollo, Farallon, Mako, Sierra, etc.) and multiple attachment styles (one hand, two hands, leashed, superman, etc.).

An old Mae West is not on topic, either here or there?

I have made posts over there trying to make this subject one which they might take on. If you just give up before even trying you are living up to my expectations today. My expectations two days ago were that some SB members might join me in actually trying.

So far only one SB member has made any effort.

 

[Sas]

I see. On the other hand, everyone in this thread didn't read that other thread. Perhaps you should consider saying it differently.

I didn't. It was quoted from another thread. And I'm still happy with my phrasing.

 

[elmer fudd]

An old Mae West is not on topic, either here or there?

I have made posts over there trying to make this subject one which they might take on. If you just give up before even trying you are living up to my expectations today. My expectations two days ago were that some SB members might join me in actually trying.

So far only one SB member has made any effort.

I would disagree with you on that point. A Mae West is a vest and they were used as BC's by some early divers. They're what the horse collar came from.

I did go and post over on MB forum, but I'm definitely not going to hold my breath waiting for them to test that issue. Besides the fact that there are relatively few divers out there, BC drag doesn't cause things to blow up or people to get decapitated or anything else that makes a show interesting to someone who otherwise has no interest in a topic. It's a bit like asking them to compare the effectiveness of tuned vs. untuned headers. Outside of a few gearheads, nobody really cares and it's not that entertaining.

Then there's the whole issue of which brand do you use. Say you decide on Seaquest vests, Zeagle back inflates and DSS wings and perhaps the DSS comes out on top. All you've really shown is that one brand of BPW has less drag than one brand of vest or back inflate. To really do this right you'd have to test 10 or so brands of each one.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am the original poster (OP) of both original posts (op's) and I am the one that has set the parameters of what is on topic! I chose Vest, Back Inflate and BP/W because those are the modern Buoyancy Compensators (BC's) one usually finds/buys/researches for diving today.

Thank you for your post on Discovery forums.

If you have been paying attention perhaps you noticed the long time MythBusters poster who immediately informed me that "product" evaluation is not considered a possible test subject. The only way they would ever do this is without identifying the BC's used in the tests. I also posted similar info just a few posts ago in this thread.

In order for it NOT to be a product test, and just a "style" test my thread on Discovery forums speaks of the MythBusters consulting "their" expert sources in the field of SCUBA to come up with BC's that represent "well designed" BC's of each style. I feel they should test at least three models in each style, and since they are not interested in "promoting" a product, all BC's would need to be completely blacked out with no visible logos or badges.

I did/will recommend a basic no-frills Vest BC made by SeaQuest (before Aqua Lung ruined them). If Walter posts over on Discovery I expect him to recommend ScubaPro Classic Sport.

Often in order to post on topic it requires reading other peoples posts.

 

[elmer fudd]

It doesn't matter which one you test. If you don't test a wide variety then you establish nothing more than the fact that one make and model outperforms another make and model. If you want a conclusive test, then it has to be a big test of many models of each variety, preferably under different conditions, (empty, fully inflated, half inflated, 1 mph, 2mph, etc...). Then you've got a base of knowledge to work from. This is another reason you'll never see MB do it. It wouldn't fall neatly into their "confirmed, busted, plausible", system of ranking. In all likelihood, results would be all over the board with small wings and light travel BC's on top and big setups like the Zeagle Tech on the bottom.

 

[rollerboi]

Your best bet IMO is to challenge a physics major, hydrodynamics engineer, or somesuch who is an avid diver to expand this area of research, possibly to the dissertation level. The type and depth (no pun intended) of research necessary lends itself to academic research, if appropriate protocols and controls can be established. That, I think, is the bigger challenge - reliable, peer-testable protocols under laboratory conditions. Not Mythbusters.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

It doesn't matter which one you test.

Are you reading my posts at all?

If the race course involved following an irregular bottom requiring multiple air additions / air releases to remain neutrally buoyant then ease of air release and streamlining would be tested at the same time (as well as different inflation amounts).

I feel they should test at least three models in each style

There could be multiple models of scooters (Apollo, Farallon, Mako, Sierra, etc.) and multiple attachment styles (one hand, two hands, leashed, superman, etc.).

Are there a wide variety of "well designed" BC's with regards to streamlining and air release?

I personally do not see very many BC's I would consider "well designed" from a streamlining and air release perspective. So far Walter has nominated the ScubaPro Classic Sport (Vest) and I bet the one he meant wasn't a 2010 model. I have nominated a 10 year old basic SeaQuest Vest. Could anybody else nominate Vest BC's that they think are well designed from a streamlining and air release perspective?

Perhaps it would have to be based on single aluminum tank diving in ~70 degree F water, so as to be valid for the vast majority of divers and not force MythBusters to go farther from home than Catalina in the summer? How much bladder do you need to dive AL80, 5-7 mm wet suit or semi-tropical dry suit?

If we would just have this F'n waste of time discussion over on the MythBusters forum we might have an F'n chance!