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halemano:
we are talking about claiming BP/W's are more streamlined than Vest BC's.
Which BP/wing and which vest?

To put that quote in the context of the ongoing conversation/debate/argument between Saspotato and myself, we have to go back to the most recent Basic Scuba thread on this topic;

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/345954-jacket-bc-back-plate-wing.html

I have used:
Ladyhawk BC
Knighthawk BC
Tusa Liberator BC
Transpac
an Oceanic BC (not sure of model)
Tusa Imprex Pro
ScubaPro Classic
about three or four others that I do not remember the names of

I have also used:
Halcyon BP/W (single tank one)
OMS BP/W 60lb lift bungeed, double bladder
OMS BP/W 45lb single bladder
OMS BP/W 32lb
Zeagle BP/W (single tank)
Dive Rite BP/W (doubles)
DSS BP/W (single)
Oxycheq BP/W (single)
At least one other, but I can't remember what kind

I found any one of those BP/Ws was better than all of those BCs. For the reasons gone over already in this thread.

The "reasons gone over already" in that thread were basically;

My Instructor is a hard core Florida cave diver. He gave me the following pros:

1. BPW can be used for nearly all diving styles (Cave, wreck, Rec, tech)
2. Completely customizable and easily field repaired
3. Better center of gravity control
4. More streamlined
5. Less belt weight

I used a jacket in class and found that the bpw was less restricting and forced me to carry only necessary items as opposed jamming my pockets full of stuff. I felt much more horizontal and streamlined as well.

And later Saspotato typed this;

As to what people will find more streamlined and easy to vent will depend on their own experience. My experience has been that every BP/W has been superior to every vest BC that I have tried in both streamlining and venting.
 
I can see her point. All of those non-BP/wings, with which I'm familiar, are bulky. I wouldn't use any of them either. They are all, in my opinion, poorly designed. On the other hand, I love my Classic Sport.
 
Saspotato:
Yes and given I have clarified this already in a past thread, I don't think he needed to bring it up again. Because it has already been explained he has no excuse for not receiving it in the way I intended even if he did not originally do so.

I see. On the other hand, everyone in this thread didn't read that other thread. Perhaps you should consider saying it differently.
 
Which BP/wing and which vest?

To put this in the context of this thread and the thread on Discovery forums where I propose MythBusters test BC streamlining; the question is which BC is more streamlined; a well designed Vest, a well designed BI or a well designed BP/W?

Also mentioned as a question/test is which BC is easier to vent air from; a well designed vest, a well designed BI or a well designed BP/W?

The reason for the second question is that many BP/W proponents continually claim a BP/W is easier to dive well in, and ease of venting is, IMHO, directly related to ease of diving well.

Over the course of the last two weeks I am coming to the conclusion that many who make the streamlining and easy to dive well claims probably had insufficient training, bought/used inferior BC's and were overweighted. Compared to the 30 degree upward angle bent knee flutter rototilling they used to do, the transition to BP/W has forced them horizontal and even if they are still overweighted and finning badly they are in better trim and most likely do move through the water better than before.

With regards to the venting question, a diver moving from Vest to BP/W has gone through some of the learning curve and now probably has a BP/W mentor, or SB, to help with tips. Many cheap student and rental Vests may not have kidney dumps (all mine do) so NOW they are better at venting and they think it is because the BP/W vents easier.

IMHO, a better way would be to get good instruction in diving in proper trim with proper finning technique rather than a partial solution by buying a different style BC.

I am saying that I think that if you have good training in well designed Vest BC's I find it hard to believe tests would show BP/W's are more streamlined and vent easier. I am also saying that I understand that those BP/W proponents have the same argument against my opinion as I do against theirs; There have been no tests on which style BC is most streamlined or vents air better.

I only join the BP/W discussion when one of the BP/W proponents claims BP/W's are more streamlined, and it happened again today in the BC forum;

Go for it. There are few things out there that feel as secure, durable or as streamline as a bp/w

SangP

:rofl3:
 
Last edited:
I've dived both. Some vests, some back inflate, and some BP/wings are poorly designed. Others are well designed. Some of them (all styles) trap air, some don't. Some of them (all styles) are streamlined, most are not.
 
That is why the question I pose is among the well designed BC's of each version, which style is more streamlined and which style vents easier.

That also narrows the recreational diving parameters to single tank because the best designed BP/W's for doubles are probably not the best designed BP/W's for streamlining, unless we are only testing BC's that accommodate doubles.
 
beat_dead_horse.gif

I just wanted a turn. :D

Perhaps, if we want this disussion to move in a constructive direction, we can focus on defining precisely which wing configuration, and which stab jacket setup, are considered the most streamlined in their class? Then we might be able to more objectively look at the issue.
 
I see. On the other hand, everyone in this thread didn't read that other thread. Perhaps you should consider saying it differently.

Been away from SB for quite awhile, so I was unavailable to add any heat to that longstanding debate.

In reading it, a few things come to mind.

First off, for the gentleman who mentioned that they had tried a Knighthawk and characterized it as a BP instead of a BP/W, this is an incorrect categorization: the labels of BC and BP/W insinuates that the latter is rear-inflation only and thus in order to be logically orthogonal (and thus have validity), the former has to be a non-wing...ie a Jacket style bladder (contains inflation on its front as well as its back). The Knighthawk has no inflation on front. Thus, the Knighthawk is a "BP/Wing" configuration (and it also has a hard backpack also makes the BP part more obvious). Granted, it is AFAIC a pretty lousy product, so I don't dispute your dislike for it - - I dislike it too - - but it can't be because it has a Jacket style bladder, because it doesn't have a Jacket Style bladder.

Second, there seems to have been some generalizations of BP/W's being able to hold a tank more securely, and that this is suggested as a common shortcoming attributable to all {Jacket} BC's - - sorry, but historically, both Jacket bladders and Wing bladders have been available in both hard- and soft- backpack configurations.

Thus, this anti-{Jacket} BC comment is actually a critique of hard-backpack versus soft-backpack configurations, not the bladder configuration, and is not germane to the discussion. As was also stated by one of the gentlemen, 'correlation is not causation', so even though soft backpacks are more commonly found in jacket bladder styles, it is not a necessary design attribute (nor is it necessary for a wing, either).

Third, use cases can & do make huge differences. For example, I'm personally getting ready to switch back from a Wing to a Jacket bladder style because with my heavy UW camera system, I am very reliably "face-dunked" on all surface floats, warm or cold. And I still have my old centroid analysis for those who need a clear picture of the basic physics.

On the revived subject of 'most' streamlined, this is a longstanding myth that has some roots from the more pyrotechnic elements of the Florida cave diving community. Probably ten years ago now after hearing this bravado one too many times, I offered to pull a couple of professional affiliation strings to get some these 'ours is the most streamlined' dive gear setups into Stevens Institute of Technology (SIT) as a Senior Design project, to quantitatively measure drag in their water tanks...and the manufacturer's rep backed out like a scalded dog. That right there was reason enough for me to never recommend their brand.

As such, my position here remains a very cynical "Show Me the Data", with an acknowledgement that personal use cases are more than enough to bias test data ... for example, I'd not be at all surprised if something as simple as the diver's head orientation (up -vs- down) is significant enough to overshadow brand-to-brand variations.


Finally, on Mythbusters, I've seen them make significant factual errors in one of my technical areas of expertise, so I'm not particularly confident that they would get any of this non-explosive scuba stuff correct, and that would probably do more damage than good to the sport of Scuba Diving. As such, I'd prefer that these boys stay away from the topic area; YMMV.


-hh
 
haleman&#333:
That is why the question I pose is among the well designed BC's of each version, which style is more streamlined and which style vents easier.

Who decides?

-hh:
Thus, the Knighthawk is a "BP/Wing" configuration

Actually, it's not. It's a back inflate, but not a BP/wing. It's poorly designed, in my opinion.
 
Who decides?

That is an issue. If we expect MythBusters to test a proper sample of each style we probably need to go over to the Submit a Myth forum on Discovery's web site and make said suggestions in the thread I will now link for the third time;

Best SCUBA BC - Topic Powered by Social Strata

I am nominating the basic SeaQuest Vest BC that I bought on close-out in ~ Jan, '01. It is the BC I went to my Instructor Factory with and the BC in which I did NSS-CDS Cavern and Intro to Cave; the "brown" one in the picture below.


In order for it NOT to be a product test, and just a "style" test my thread on Discovery forums speaks of the MythBusters consulting "their" expert sources in the field of SCUBA to come up with BC's that represent "well designed" BC's of each style. I feel they should test at least three models in each style, and since they are not interested in "promoting" a product, all BC's would need to be completely blacked out with no visible logos or badges.

I agree that Walter's favorite is a very likely candidate for "well designed" Vest BC.
 

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