mwpowell
Contributor
SwimsWithSharks:
lol. I think I know this instructor.
Hello From Tulsa! 3rd dive = Decompression Camber
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lol. I think I know this instructor.
TekDiveGirl:
Oops! The effects of not allowing sufficient time for the caffeine to penetrate the brain cells. Don't have my manual with me, but the actual standards for training dives are either 20' for 15 minutes or 15' for 20 minutes. I always get those 2 confused. 20' for 20 minutes covers it both ways
The standard I was thinking of on my previous post was the CESA standard of a 30' ascent. If this standard was adhered to then at least one of the dives would go to 30'. But most instructors around here won't do that because of having to ascend, descend, ascend, descend, etc, etc x 8.
(Note to self - allow more time for caffeine penetration...)
Ain'tDeadYet
Registered
Matt,
it's been so great to watch your posts and to see you become willing to learn how to plan a pleasurable, safe dive. if you dive safely and in control, you'll have the opportunity to dive thousands of times, in many wonderful places. doesn't that sound more appealing than being all dead and *****??
Andy's dive profile sounds real good. i noticed that, although he went to 104 feet, the majority of his dive was between 40 and 20 feet, with an additional safety stop at 20 feet. that's way different than plummeting down and then zooooming back up. you are asking your body to do an unnatural thing when you take it to eight bars, or eight times the pressure of the atmosphere on the surface. (and didn't i read somewhere that the effect of increased pressure on the body is geometric or logarithmic, not arithmetic?) when you're increasing or decreasing that pressure, you need to do it SLOWLY, to allow your body to adjust.
one of the (many) things i truly love about diving is the elegant, legato pace at which everything takes place. but, it always takes me some time to adjust from the 70 mph, instant messaging, microwave, broadband, 3 second jump-cut pace of life at the surface. I hope you learn to love the placid nature of the underwater world. Fish are disinclined to hurry, unless there's something big with teeth behind them. Coral and sponges... talk about lessons in patience!
I wouldn't rush into the AOW until you have maybe thirty dives logged, so you can have time to absorb and practice what you learned in OW. (Might want to take a cruise through that book again, now that you have some dive experience.) Two things you could focus on:
BUOYANCY. If you have true neutral buoyancy and can use your breath to control ascent and descent rather than weights and air in the BC, diving is like flying underwater. The first day you're on Coz, find a dive instructor you can work with and buy an hour of private time. Get your buoyancy established, then practice during your subsequent dives. You will like diving so much more if your buoyancy is effortless and you can float weightless between the surface and the bottom.
COMPUTER. get one. from a reputable dive shop, not ebay. they're expensive, but you can often find good deals if you shop around, either discontinued models or serviced and certified used models. the dive shops around here (boston) all have a 60-day return policy, so buy a computer, take it to your local indoor pool & try it out. (Don't forget to read the manual first) if you don't like the interface, take it back and try another model. And another, until you find one that you really like. Remember, though, that a dive computer is like the speedometer on a car: it only works if you look at it frequently.
Good luck, Matt. It sounds as if you've made the first step toward being a very good diver.
See you on the boat.
ADY
it's been so great to watch your posts and to see you become willing to learn how to plan a pleasurable, safe dive. if you dive safely and in control, you'll have the opportunity to dive thousands of times, in many wonderful places. doesn't that sound more appealing than being all dead and *****??
Andy's dive profile sounds real good. i noticed that, although he went to 104 feet, the majority of his dive was between 40 and 20 feet, with an additional safety stop at 20 feet. that's way different than plummeting down and then zooooming back up. you are asking your body to do an unnatural thing when you take it to eight bars, or eight times the pressure of the atmosphere on the surface. (and didn't i read somewhere that the effect of increased pressure on the body is geometric or logarithmic, not arithmetic?) when you're increasing or decreasing that pressure, you need to do it SLOWLY, to allow your body to adjust.
one of the (many) things i truly love about diving is the elegant, legato pace at which everything takes place. but, it always takes me some time to adjust from the 70 mph, instant messaging, microwave, broadband, 3 second jump-cut pace of life at the surface. I hope you learn to love the placid nature of the underwater world. Fish are disinclined to hurry, unless there's something big with teeth behind them. Coral and sponges... talk about lessons in patience!
I wouldn't rush into the AOW until you have maybe thirty dives logged, so you can have time to absorb and practice what you learned in OW. (Might want to take a cruise through that book again, now that you have some dive experience.) Two things you could focus on:
BUOYANCY. If you have true neutral buoyancy and can use your breath to control ascent and descent rather than weights and air in the BC, diving is like flying underwater. The first day you're on Coz, find a dive instructor you can work with and buy an hour of private time. Get your buoyancy established, then practice during your subsequent dives. You will like diving so much more if your buoyancy is effortless and you can float weightless between the surface and the bottom.
COMPUTER. get one. from a reputable dive shop, not ebay. they're expensive, but you can often find good deals if you shop around, either discontinued models or serviced and certified used models. the dive shops around here (boston) all have a 60-day return policy, so buy a computer, take it to your local indoor pool & try it out. (Don't forget to read the manual first) if you don't like the interface, take it back and try another model. And another, until you find one that you really like. Remember, though, that a dive computer is like the speedometer on a car: it only works if you look at it frequently.
Good luck, Matt. It sounds as if you've made the first step toward being a very good diver.
See you on the boat.
ADY
gasgirl
Contributor
undRH2OdivR:
I agree that this thread has generated a lot of great points, and in fact, reading it is the main reason I decided to join this board. The feedback is very informative, and for the most part, constructive, rather than critical.
I have dived with a number of the Cayman operators, and generally, the first morning dive is to a depth of approximately 100 ft. However, there seems to be no distinction between OW and AOW diver certifications by the dive operators as they usually only have one dive boat going out.
I think it may be a bit harsh to say that Matt was out of control. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the dives were beyond Matt's abilities based on his experience level, but the choice of dive sites were beyond Matt's control.
My advice is for beginner divers to stick to the afternoon boat dives that are generally shallow reefs around 30-50 ft until they fine tune their underwater skills and gain more confidence. Unfortunately, dive operators don't seem to be more proactive in suggesting this... maybe they are afraid of losing their business to the other dive operators who will offer the beginners the "better" deep dives?
Eric, I am glad you are planning to do your AOW certification and getting more training dives before your trip, because as you may find out once you're in Hawaii, not everything is in your control. The more prepared you are, the better your experience will be.
Just hang loose...
gasgirl:
The choice of dive sites may have been out of his control but I firmly believe that you have to take responsiblity for yourself as a diver and that any diver can call a dive at any time without any reason. Deciding not to do a dive because you aren't prepared for it is better than getting into real trouble.
A few years ago I was on a trip with a friend and hopped on a dive boat. I had not been in the water for about 9 months. The first dive was a bounce dive to about 150 ft. on air. I said no thank you. It wasn't a dive I wanted to do. Fortunately, everyone did fine.
A few months ago, I was with a reasonably new diver in Northern California. The dive was aways off shore, cold water, with low vis. This was the divers first cold water ocean dives. At about 25 feet, I could tell that she was a bit stressed. I decided to call the dive. The diver argued (as well as you can argue underwater) a bit but I called the dive. I did not feel comfortable doing that dive with a buddy who was feeling that uncomfortable in the conditions. In retrospect the diver thanked me. The next day we did a nice shore dive and she feels much better about her cold water experience.
Anyway, the point is that even if you have paid for a trip it is better to call a dive than to get into real trouble. Matt sounds like he is learning from the experience and that will probably make him a better diver than some people who never have a problem. Matt is also lucky that his symptoms resolved. Now, happy and safe diving to all!
Man, that sound much nicer!gasgirl:
Because I'm seriously not a "Living on the edge" kind of guy. It's not like I drive on the wrong side on the highway for fun. I want to be safe and I want to stay alive.I'm truely amazed at the response I've gotten. I scolled threw 20 pages in this section and no other thread comes close to this length. Surely, I'm not the first to make such a stupid mistake?
:sofa:
P.S. The Cayman Hyperbaric chamber dude said they use the chamber about 80-90 times per year.
gasgirl
Contributor
SwimsWithSharks:
Just to clarify... I am not condoning the dives that Matt made as a newly certified diver... only that I don't think it was warranted to say that "this diver was out of control". As you and others have pointed out, Matt seems very receptive to learning from the experience, and becoming a safer diver, so he doesn't strike me as someone with a death wish.
"The choice of dive sites may have been out of his control but I firmly believe that you have to take responsiblity for yourself as a diver and that any diver can call a dive at any time without any reason. Deciding not to do a dive because you aren't prepared for it is better than getting into real trouble." (Quote from Swims With sharks)
My other comments were to assist other newly certified divers in doing exactly what you have suggested... "deciding not to do a dive because you aren't prepared for it". Since dive operators seem to use no discretion, limiting yourself to the shallow afternoon dives and avoiding the deep morning dives as a newly certified diver seems the most prudent way to avoid getting into trouble. In other words, I don't think we are really disagreeing...
miketsp
Contributor
Ain'tDeadYet:
Nobody on this thread talked about going to 8 bars = 70m = 230ft.
Ain'tDeadYet:
I would be curious to hear more details about this article. It seems contrary to the papers written by most reputable authors.
Ain'tDeadYet:
Why the prejudice against ebay & similar?
Very few dive computers are servicable. Some models from a leading manufacturer are simply thrown away when the battery runs down. Most others, all you can do is wash them & change the battery.
Unless there is a fault provoking a misreading of depth, easily checked, it is most unlikely they will perform any differently from a new one of the same brand from the LDS.
gasgirl:
I don't think anyone is saying Matt has a death wish. In saying he was out of control, the only thing that was meant (at least by me) is that he was not in control of his dive. He didn't plan his dive, he didn't dive his plan. He didn't know the plan. I chose the words I used and in that order to stress that no one should be diving that way. During the initial postings here Matt didn't seem to think he had done anything wrong, as he stated himself. He has since redeemed himself by admitting his mistakes. Great job, Matt! Keep learning and dive safe!
ShoalDiverSA
Contributor
SwimsWithSharks:
On one of the Multilevel dives on my AOW course, my instructor was hugging the bottom, with my wife and I swimming at our planned depth (for that point in the dive) of 15m. The Instructor dropped into a pothole and started beckoning furiously at us to come look at something (which we later found out was a pretty large moray). The rest of the group joined him. He tried convincing me again, but I signalled "no" and pointed to my depth gauge. He ascended to us, clapped and shook our hands.
The point of the exercise is that the "bottom" is not the sand or reef below us. The "bottom" is a depth imposed by our training, previous experience, dive plan and other factors (depending on where or when the dive is taking place). If that was not the case, we could forego buoyancy control and crawl around on the reef on all fours!
When I did my PADI OW course many moons ago, one item in the training was very clear - you are only trained for the conditions in which you were certified. If you trained in a freshwater lake at 20 feet, you are not trained for an open water dive to 60 feet. Stick within the limits of your training and as you become more experienced, your limits will grow (to an extent). So start off with an open water dive to 20ft and get used to being in the open water. Once you are comfortable, then you can start going deeper (with the ultimate limit being that imposed by your training). There is no competition to see who can go deeper (although I have seen many divers participate in this deadly game) for longer. Even when you one day decide to get your AOW certification, you will learn that diving deep is only done for a particular purpose - not just for kicks. It is also done with strict planning and strict adherence to the plan (actually, any diving should be undertaken this way).
Your questions about dive planning are very similar to those I had. The first rule I learnt is - Unless your dive tables are in your BC pocket, you cannot plan your dive. More often than not, the dive tables are left lying at the bottom of the gear bag when the dive briefing starts. At least, this is what I have seen. Keep your tables with you, so when the maximum depth is discussed, you can plan your bottom time. Now the bottom time and depth you have planned are your limits. If the skipper drops you on the wrong spot and your max. depth has changed, pull out your tables and replan your dive (in conjunction with your buddy and even your DM). Then stick to it. There are no prizes for pushing the limits.
I would suggest that you get a dive computer - it is a great tool. However, get comfortable with using your dive tables to plan your dives first.
I must echo the sentiments of the other people on this thread - your responses have been refreshing in their honesty and humility. You obviously intend having a long dive career (and life). Sadly, many people post the mistakes they made and spend the rest of their time defending their actions. You have chosen to learn. BRAVO!
All the best,
Andrew
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