Have training standards "slipped"?

[Adobo]

Somebody once asked me "... why do you have to fight city hall?"... My answer, "... because I fear what would happen if everybody stopped."

These threads might NOT change the big agencies... but they DO make people think... and thinking is never a bad thing.

Nobody is objecting to thinking.

All I am saying is why not actually do something beyond complaining? I know that numerous instructors in this thread alone do a better job than what the "basic" open water class offers. Where is the list of these instructors? Is there one in my area?

I know for a fact that there are some classes that teach mid-water skills, better trim and buoyancy, alternate propulsion techniques. Where is the list of classes that teach that? And is there one in my area?

It makes no difference whatsoever whether or not the standards have slipped. The more important question is, do divers have the skills/knowledge they require to execute the diving they are about to do? How do they judge? If they don't, what do we as the scubaboard community recommend as far as next steps (education or experience or whatever)?

What I see at the dive shop is a menu of classes that quite frankly, are structured to extract more money from me. What I see in this and similar threads is opinions on how crappy the offering is from my dive shop/agency. What I am missing is the "here is what you need to know" to be able to pick the right instructor and the correct class to progress my diving.

 

[Walter]

the arguement can also be made that NO level of training can possibly prepare you for every possible condition or situation.

That is an excellent argument for ending training completely, but not a very good argument for not doing the best we can.

I *have* always held to the philosophy that the more tools you have in your tool chest the better off you are... and if you actually PRACTICE with those tools on a regular basis... you're better off yet.

Excellent point.

I wonder if the scubaboard community would be better served by coming up with a set of guidelines that we as a community feel is appropriate. As an example, out of open water, max depth should be no more than 50 feet (regardless of what your agency says).

That would be a can of worms. If you got your OW card from these instructors:......., we recommend a 20 ft limit, if from these:.......... we recommend a 30 ft limit..............if from these:.......... don't even take a shower without a DM to hold your hand.

attempting to change the standards/training regimen from the big agencies through threads like this is an exercise in futility.

This is not such an attempt. Standards will continue to drop. In 20 years, these threads will still be happening. Threads like this are not good for changing standards, they are good for educating consumers and sometimes even instructors.

23 pages of the same discussion about how sucky things are today isn't really helping resolve this particular issue.

I have 6 pages.

All I am saying is why not actually do something beyond complaining?

I think we did.

 

[J.R.]

That is an excellent argument for ending training completely, but not a very good argument for not doing the best we can.

Well... really wasn't tryin' to make *that* particular arguement... but simply putting it out there to serve as an acknowledgement that any "course of training" is a starting point... (... and common sense sez' that if your starting point is closer to the intended the finish line than the other guy's... you might have a certain *edge* workin' in your favor.) I really didn't mean to imply that education shouldn't be anything short of "as complete as possible"...

I have always felt that "good enough" training is founded on that point though... ("We can't teach EVERYTHING so we're presenting you with only the stuff we feel *imporantant* to get you diving.")... so I do appreciate your point.

There IS the thing about task overloading... how much do you teach before the student starts to get that 'narcosis look' on their face? How many 'alternate techniques' do you present before the newbie diver starts getting their proceedures confused as to when and how to apply them?

Then again... how does one really prepare a diver for the possible task loading problems associated with an equipment failure at 80 feet???

My sense of most of the 'training' is that it falls into line with the old Bill Cosby comedy routine about becoming an Army medic ("... here's the body... look at it... memorize it... OK... next slide...")...

[Knowledge reviews... Ummm.... let's recite the mantra exactly as printed in the book and hope remember it by the time the test rolls around... oh... and hand in the sheets so we can later prove that you MUST have been taught/read it because you wrote it down word for word on this here piece of paper...]

... yea, I'd like to see more focus on getting basic skills honed rather than just 'successfully demonstrated'... but, that's just me... the wide eyed aspiring aquanaut is probably going to be more inclined to the "$9.95 special" approach though.

 

[J.R.]

... then again... maybe the answer is to not state a "course length"... but simply to have instructors say that "you'll get your cert card when you can demonstrate to me you're a competent diver..." ... but there are probably a flotilla of lawyers out there who would have just too much fun with that concept...

 

[under water]

I have learned many things by diving incrementally that I may or may not have learned through training. I believe that I have learned to incorporate learning and practice into every dive I do.
I had a great DM/instructor in St Croix who, when we started to do AOW training, mentioned that it would be best if I just spent more time practicing on basic skills, in particular bouyancy and trying to fine tune my weighting. Since we had allocated only enough time to do the AOW classes, he gave up his training fee from my wife & I and steered us down the right path. I was one of those that wanted to come right out of OW and into AOW.
My hats off to him for his unselfish appraisal. The time we spent on bouyancy was much more important than me getting that AOW cert.
I had read all the chapters already and was geared up to practice all the new skills in the AOW classes, but learning one thing, bouyancy, has contributed much more to my enjoyment, confidence and perhaps even safety under the surface.

I guess I am just echoing the sentiment that even if standards have gone down and technology has required changes that the instructor can make the biggest difference.
And even more importantly, it is what you do with it that matters.

By the time I do take the AOW class, hopefully it will be a review.
I consider reading Scubaboard as ongoing education.

 

[texarkandy]

Below is copied & pasted from another site - (not my own):

Three instructors and their students are on board a dive boat in the middle of the ocean. There is a NAUI instructor, a PADI instructor, and an SSI instructor.

Everything is going fine until the boat springs a leak and starts to sink.

The SSI instructor says to his students, "Okay, we're in the middle of the ocean, so we might as well do our deep dive."

The NAUI instructor says to his students, "Okay, we might as well do our navigation dive, so let's get our compasses out and swim towards shore."

The PADI instructor says to his students, "Okay, for $25 extra you guys get to do a wreck dive!" "

 

[Adobo]

That would be a can of worms. If you got your OW card from these instructors:......., we recommend a 20 ft limit, if from these:.......... we recommend a 30 ft limit..............if from these:.......... don't even take a shower without a DM to hold your hand.

It need not be stated in that fashion. There's a lot of different ways that we as a community can describe what we think with regards to where an open water diver is after their training.

One example (format only), 76% of Scubaboard members feel that divers right out of open water should limit their dives to 50 ft and shallower.

This is not such an attempt. Standards will continue to drop. In 20 years, these threads will still be happening. Threads like this are not good for changing standards, they are good for educating consumers and sometimes even instructors.

I hope so. 230 messages and counting. Hopefully someone is getting something useful out of this. Incidentally, even if the standards have slipped, does it really matter? If instructors of today were teaching to old standards, would that be good enough? Would it even be good?

I think we did.

80 more replies to read? I think whatever useful messages that exist in these threads may be getting watered down by the amount of noise that surrounds them. A sticky with clear, concise info might actually be easier to read.

 

[matt_w]

Does all this means I can wear my reef gloves again and pull myself along when my legs get tired.

Matt

 

[The Chairman]

Does all this means I can wear my reef gloves again and pull myself along when my legs get tired.

Bwahahahaha! You know, it's amazing how they rewrite history to make the old days sound so charming.

 

[Walter]

Pete, let's all forget was once was and what is now. Let's just work toward what should be. I think we can all agree we aren't there. None of the agencies have or have ever had perfect standards.