Has anybody heard what happened to the inspiration diver.....

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What people seem to be overlooking continualy on this subject. You cannot group any of these together and use evidence for oneas evidence for another. With this in mind it is possible to go through each and every one of the inspiration deaths an not be able to rule out some unit error.

Each and every single one.

'The diver was not found'. Since when does this mean he died of natural causes, and yet certain posters continue to claim that some of these died by natural causes when there there is no evidence either way.

certain people continue to pich up on minor points and bring them up out of all proportion and sweeping under the capet some information which is fundimental to deople making up their own minds.

I speant 2 1/2 hours with a certain freequent pro inspiration diver on this listg. we went through each and every fatality indevidually and with the exception of Keith Milburn, who appears to have returned to the water after a dive without turning his unit back on, it was not possible to rule out an event other than natural causes for any of theseother deaths.

He assured me he would update his web site to reflect our discussion. This has not happened.

Why not, why are certain people so pro despite substancial evidence? What hold is there over them? Ask yourself.

This is people lives we are talking about.
 
... but then perhaps it should. Although what we are doing is mainly putting ourselves into clear and opposite camps, it still may be of benefit to the casual reader to be able to read the opposite views with comments from the other side on a broad forum.

First, it must be stated that this thread long ago ceased to be about the sad death of Mr Rosenfeldt. It has become - probably was from the start - a classic anti-Inspiration diatribe. That's fair enough, especially if as the anti-inspirites argue, the yellow box really is a box of death. As in - unlike every other rebreather out there, it seems:

Why not, why are certain people so pro despite substancial evidence? What hold is there over them? Ask yourself.
This is people lives we are talking about.

Implication: APD has some sort of secret agenda to design, manufacture and sell underwater breathing apparatus they know to be faulty or dangerous, despite all moral, legal or even purely commercial arguments to the contrary.

Implication: There is a secret cabbal of divers actually diving these boxes, well aware of the presupposed danger above, yet strangely oblivious to their own safety and willing to conspire to lure yet more divers into the death-trap ...

Now thank about both implications. Are they reasonable? Are they logical? I'll leave it at that, but I'll mention that all Inspiration instructors I've pleasure of speaking to personally have emphasized - from the start - how dangerous ECCR diving can be if not taken very seriously indeed.

Now, just ponder this issue: What type of diving are these rebreathers used for? Simple reef dives to 18 MSW in the warm Caribbean? Well, usually they're not acquired for that purpose and the fatalities haven't actually occurred there either.

Let's go over to the type of very advanced dives we are talking about: Do other rebreathers exhibit similar fatality rates on these dives?

Well, we have a few Dolphin fatalities (the latest I know of was in the Philippines a while ago, originally and wrongly touted by the anti-inspirites as an Inspiration death ... of course), which is a damn shame considering that it - with the exception of the injection clogging problem - requires gross incompetence and negligence to kill yourself on one.

I'm not aware of any Azimut (SCR) fatalities but we came close in Sweden last year and - sadly - they will happen in the future for the same reason that they happen to Dräger (and other CMF SCR) users.

Halcyon PVR-BASC? Two confirmed fatalities on this SCR, both in South Africa. Does this mean this particular Halcyon is dangerous? No, the dives attempted where very serious ones.

Biomarine Mk 15.5 (et al): Almost a fatality in the famous Sydney incident last year, but Jason knows a hell of a lot more about rebreather diving than me and it just goes to show how dangerous this type of diving can be.

Halcyon RB80? No fatalities that I know of on this SCR, but the Boys from Brazil did their darn best on their 150 metre stunt ... I suppose their support organization saved them in the end, although I've never really figured out the purpose of having deep tech support hovering 20 metres above the people who actually need help ... the RB80 seems to be a very good piece of kit, but it also is a very serious piece of kit ...

...which is the point of this whole minor essay. These are all serious pieces of kit used for serious diving. Things can and will go wrong and the only antidote is very serious training and a very serious attitude to these rebreathers.

The Inspiration has been sold in far more numbers than all other CCR:s combined (unless the Russians have been spewing out IDA-71:s in unheard of numbers) and leads the fatality rankings solely for that very reason.

One cannot have it both ways: one cannot argue that the PVR-BASC:s fatality rate - several times higher than the Inspiration - is artificially high simply because it hasn't been sold in enough numbers to make a proper statistical analysis and then argue that the Inspiration fatality rates are high yet ignore that it's the only CCR sold on the civilian market in anything like mass-market figures.

So Lisa, what you must do to make a convincing case is not to spout old opinions with their many inherent and disproven untruths, but rather specifically point to aspects of the Inspiration design, training or use which would lead to the conclusion that one should really buy another CCR or at least, highly capable SCR, which basically points to the RB80 and derivatives.

They're out there: the KISS and derivatives, the Steam Machines, the Voyager, even the odd BioMarine, the EDO 04 (well, not right now), the RB80 ... they're all fine turtles, I'm sure.

What you have to is make the case for not including the Inspiration in the above number. So far, no-one has been able to do this. Here endeth the lesson.
 
The posting by fins wake put many of the issues regarding the inspiration into their proper perspective. A very reasoned and logical argument.
 
which is the point of this whole minor essay. These are all serious pieces of kit used for serious diving. Things can and will go wrong and the only antidote is very serious training and a very serious attitude to these rebreathers.

That is why people do a training course - 5 days in most cases. Thise prople are not stupid.

You accuse me of going over old points, this is all I see pros doing and ignoring any real information, and certainly not posting any information they find which may not suport their cause.
We will never get anywhere calling each other names. All we want are the facts and the truth, not the wall of silence which goes up each time when there is another incident. Each time an incidednt is brought out to the poblic and anyone asks for information, they are immediately accused of bad mouthing the unit.

You want a fact. I an blue in the face telling people facts, here is one example for you.
Paul Haydon, the very first of the fatalities, in the inquest the neuropathologist pointed out neuronal and glyal changes which are seen to occur in hypoxia. He said these changes do not occur until some time after the initial hypoxic event. It is recognised this duration of time is generaly hours or even days after hypoxia.
The pros like to ignore this evidence. They keep on saying Paul's O2 cylinder was empty, therefore it leaked and he ran out of oxygen at the start of the dive.
The O2 cylinder would be empty in both cases, if the unit was switched on and working to any standard, but with the latter there would have been no physical changes possible to see in the post mortom. This would be clear cut.
This is not in line with the pathologist's evidence of hypoxia then a gap followed by death.

How much more black and white can I make it.

I will always be open to new evidence and will continue to tral each case on its own merits. So should everyone else.
 
Lisa3 once bubbled...
I speant 2 1/2 hours with a certain freequent pro inspiration diver on this listg. we went through each and every fatality indevidually and with the exception of Keith Milburn, who appears to have returned to the water after a dive without turning his unit back on, it was not possible to rule out an event other than natural causes for any of theseother deaths.

He assured me he would update his web site to reflect our discussion. This has not happened.

Why not, why are certain people so pro despite substancial evidence? What hold is there over them? Ask yourself.

I made an lot of changes to the site after our great conversation, especially to Pauls story which I even changed my conclusion to based on the new facts you brought me. In fact if you read my conclusion it is exactly what you have just stated in the post above. This was put in the site on Sunday, 23 March 2003
which was the day after our meeting

As before I also offered to add any comments you yourself wanted to add and I still extend that offer, Send them to me and I will include them

I extend this to anyone else. If you have new evidence or a new interpretation of the data I will post it on the site. Your views are as valid as mine. I try to post as much as possible, pro or con. The only stuff I will sensor is blatent untruths or slander

I also reserve the right to post my own analysis of each incident, which may or may not agree with yours, but hey, its my website!! and I WILL allow you to post your analysis

Lisa, you are absolutely correct in saying that in all but 2 or 3 cases we have no idea of the actual cause or causes and that the Inspiration could be at fault. I do not despute that in the slightest. And yes I know full well that APD dont always tell the whole truth. I am very keen for you to provide your analysis of each incident and as I offered before for you to co run the incident collection with me. I put on my site all the new information I took notes on from our meeting and was planning to add a second interpretation box on each incident (different colour form mine) for you to write your bit. I'm pretty certain after our meeting that we both feel the same way about these incidents and want them to not happen

I think the difference is in the interpretation. I know that we normally cant prove any conclusion, But In my analysis I looked at all the evidence I have available and picked the most likely scenario to fit the details. I may well be wrong (in fact I'd be very suprised if I'm not) and yet I still have Unknown as the cause in many as there is insufficient evidence to even guess. In the majority there is no evidence proving the unit is at fault or that the unit isn't at fault or that they were not attacked by pink elephants in Tutu's

Am I pro Inspiration? Yes, hard to be anti if you own one
Am I convinced the unit is blameless in ALL incidents? No
Am I convinced the unit was not to blame for some of these incidents? Yes
Do I beleive the unit has serious design faults? No
Do I believe the unit has design faults? Yes
Do I believe APD could fix these faults? Yes
Do I believe APD has informed the users of ALL these faults? No
Do I believe the unit is dangerous if used properly? No
Do I believe the unit is dangerous if used improperly? YES!!
Do I believe the unit never malfunctions? No
Do I believe that there is a cover up? No
Do I believe Solo RB diving is stupid? Yes

Thats where I stand
 
Lisa, Madmole

Thank you so much for your posts-Finally logical and intuative posts. Madmole you hit the mark.
 
Each time an incidednt is brought out to the poblic and anyone asks for information, they are immediately accused of bad mouthing the unit.

You will have noticed that I also ask for information in diver incidents (and not only RB or Inspiration but OC, too).

In fact I crave it. I have a fascination for things that can go wrong ever since I was almost killed on my OW course (dive four, absolute CF, 2nd stage mouthpiece blew off whilst my instructor's tank had been shut off by another instructor etc etc) and after a nasty experience on a Baltic wreck dive half-a-year later.

I believe this kind of info can prevent future accidents and fatalities, including, hopefully my own some day when all goes pear-shaped.

You will also notice that the info I'm asking for isn't forthcoming in most cases. The Haydon specifics you are referring to are unusual in that respect. I assume you knew Mr Haydon, but since we are using his tragic death to discuss the Inspiration, would you allow me to run through what I've read in the matter? Here goes ...

I only know some of the 'reported facts' as found on various boards. Lately Diver Mole has collected and collated them on his excellent website.

Now this is what I have gathered from reading these accounts. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my assumptions:

(1) Paul wasn't trimix certified for the Inspiration, yet he was diving trimix as diluent on the fatal dive.
(2) He did his basic Inspiration training in March 1998. He died in May 1998.
(3) It was an advanced dive to a wreck lying at 75 metres + in British waters.
(4) He dived solo.
(5) He apparently did not do any checks at 6 metres upon descent (according to his computer).
(6) The Coroner's verdict was accidental death caused by hypoxia following leakage of the on-board O2.
(7) Paul apparently did not notice his ppO2 dropping and apparently took no remedial action (several options here).

So far what I've gathered from all the posts and e-mails.

Now, your (?) comments are also to be found on Diver Mole's home page, disputing point (6) quite successfully. Indeed Stephen seems to accept your conclusion (if indeed this is it) that Paul's Inspiration had cracked handsets which didn't tell him that his ppO2 was dropping.

This might be highly relevant to Inspiration divers today if it weren't for the fact that the Inspiration has undergone modifications for the better since 1998. The handsets, for example, were changed in 2000.

Perhaps even more relevant is that Inspiration diver training has taken great strides since 1998. Accident analysis forms part of the training nowadays, just like in cave diving. Perhaps the spiking that many Inspiration divers do at 6 metres upon descent would have indicated to Paul that something was amiss? [Point (5)]. We'll never know.

Certainly diving the Afric after only two months' experience on the unit is somewhat foolhardy. Today, an Inspiration diver diving to those depths would be expected to be Trimix Inspiraton trained with at least 50h (IANTD) or 75h on the unit before Trimix-training and after basic training.

Things might well have looked different in 1998, I honestly don't know, but the rapidness of this dive so close to acquisition of the unit doesn't look too clever an idea by the standards of 2003.

In fact, this is where the relevant OC comparisons aren't made. I've noticed some 5-6 deaths over the last six months, ranging from Egypt to Poland, on technical OC dives. These dives are difficult in themselves. But if a diver dies on an Apeks or on a Scubapro or a Poseidon, does that mean that these regs are dangerous?

Diving a rebreather merely adds to the task-loading. All the more reason to go shallow for the first 50-100 hours.

But my main gripe, like Diver Mole, is point (4). I don't condone solo diving, even on OC, and on a CCR it definitely ups the ante.

I don't condemn solo diving, I wouldn't want it outlawed or anything. For cave exploration or wreck penetration it has its merits. But again, it ups the ante. There'll be no-one else there to help you even in theory if things go wrong.

Remember the Biomarine and RB80 incidents I referred to in my previous post? Well, the main difference between these non-fatal dives and Paul Haydon's fatal dive is that Paul dived SOLO!

That is the difference, not the make of rebreather!

Jason McH would have been a civilian Biomarine fatality had he not had a superb technical dive team to get him up from 100 metres and then a superb team waiting on deck to give him first aid and call the emergency response team. The GUE chaps in Brazil would have suffered much more severe injuries, maybe even death, had they not dived as part of a team, with support (of sorts) waiting on them.

Today, many, many advanced dives are carried out on the Inspiration every day, all over the world. Yet, since Bobby Barratt (and possibly Thomas Rosenfeldt) there have been no further Inspiration fatalities. Four fatalities in 1998 have turned into two fatalities in 2002, when presumably sales are higher than ever.

My point remains, Lisa, that I genuinely do not believe the Inspiration to be any more (nor less) dangerous than any other rebreather out there. It is merely sold in much larger numbers and indeed, used for more advanced dives than many other pieces of kit.

Paul Haydon's death was tragic, but if knowledge of the details surrounding his death (solo dive to great depth with too few hours on the unit) can prevent further deaths on a rebreather, no matter what the make, then this thread has not been in vain.
 
jonnythan once bubbled...


So are driving and cutting onions.

The fact is that you don't know the incident rate in SCUBA diving, nor do you know the incident rate in many other every day activities.

To say that diving is dangerous is foolish.


Keep going to school.... Hopefully they'll teach you something....

But you must be going for engineering... Because you need to learn about the real world....

Been there done that....

Incident rate for Tech diving and RB diving is around the same.

If you throw in some other things like skydiving, rappelling, motorcycles, skiing, racing, rescue diving, fire fighting, tank rescue, working in factories, etc etc...

They are all dangerous.

They can be done if your carefull but they are dangerous....


It ain't sitting on the couch... Or behind a desk....
They all have risks...

Pulled dead bodies out of tanks, seen people burned by 12 " diameter torches, saw electrician get his arm amputated on a job site, seen a girl assend from 65ft and hold her breath, rebar through a mans skull, still alive, etc, etc, etc.....

I'm not and never have Condemned the Inspiration as a death trap. But like tech diving, you don't just slap it on your back and go.

The only thing I asked to start this thread was if anyone had heard about the incident of a Diver dying on an Inspiration...

First response was There have been no RB incidents recently... Which was wrong. Then everything trying to disprove it was an Inspiration... I don't care what it was. Just wanted to know from others who dive RB's what happened if they had heard....

Nobody has come up with anything.... I talked to the brother.. That's where I got the Info... I really could care less if you believe it...

But everything still trying to disprove it was an inspiration... Then you jumping in to disprove diving dangerous.. A wrong quote from the dictionary, that I corrected. Then a smart remark from you on onions... Well gee. I didn't quote the dictionary first... I just pointed out it was misqouted.....

So take some liberal arts classes that they keep knocking out of Engineering... Because you need real world education skills... Like most new engineers....

This is actually all ridicoulous...
 
I think most people will agree that bashing is not constructive. However since you insist. Diving for you may indeed be very dangerous. not all dives are the same or involve the same risks. to lump all divers and dives into one category and say all diving is dangerous is wrong. Also the Dangerous dispute over the dictionary is stupid. The websters college dictionary fourth edition lists dangerous exactly as posted by tigerscuba. Dah maybe diff editions list it differently. The fact is both definitions are correct. I think the key word in tigerscubas is LIKELY. I came to this board to learn from others I have been diving breathers for 20 years and am in no way an expert. I just began diving the inspiration and have had to start all over again. To throw a unit on your back and go diving is indeed dangerous. To be well trained, dive within your limits, and know your gear and its failure modes and plan for them is not dangerous(likely to cause injury or death). Before you start bashing people maybe you should realize that you or me or anyone is ever going to know it all. Our opinions are just that opinions and I believe everyone should be able to express them. As to the inspiration(or not) accident, the facts dont appear to be known at this time. Investigations take time. I personally dont think the model is important. Any accident on any rebreather or OC can be analyzed and learned from.
 
saturated once bubbled...
I think most people will agree that bashing is not constructive. However since you insist. Diving for you may indeed be very dangerous. not all dives are the same or involve the same risks. to lump all divers and dives into one category and say all diving is dangerous is wrong.

I never stated all diving was VERY DANGEROUS... I said it's DANGEROUS...

Dangerous per the definition is correct here.... All diving is dangerous....

Also the Dangerous dispute over the dictionary is stupid. The websters college dictionary fourth edition lists dangerous exactly as posted by tigerscuba. [/B][/QUOTE]

You posted the dictionary qoute. Not Tigerscuba... I posted the whole dictionary reference..

Dah maybe diff editions list it differently. The fact is both definitions are correct. I think the key word in tigerscubas is LIKELY. [/B][/QUOTE]

DANGEROUS applies to something that may cause harm or loss unless dealt with carefully <soldiers on a dangerous mission>.

From Websters online dictionary... Not a likely in it anywhere....



I came to this board to learn from others I have been diving breathers for 20 years and am in no way an expert. I just began diving the inspiration and have had to start all over again. To throw a unit on your back and go diving is indeed dangerous. To be well trained, dive within your limits, and know your gear and its failure modes and plan for them is not dangerous(likely to cause injury or death). [/B][/QUOTE]

Per the dictionary definition. DANGEROUS applies to something that may cause harm or loss unless dealt with carefully <soldiers on a dangerous mission>. Yep, it is dangerous...


Before you start bashing people maybe you should realize that you or me or anyone is ever going to know it all. Our opinions are just that opinions and I believe everyone should be able to express them. As to the inspiration(or not) accident, the facts dont appear to be known at this time. [/B][/QUOTE]

They are known. At least the who, where, and what he was diving.. Just not released.. Unless you know someone that was diving on the agressor or in the family...

Investigations take time. I personally dont think the model is important. Any accident on any rebreather or OC can be analyzed and learned from. [/B][/QUOTE]


I completely agree...
 

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